Lord Harris of Haringey
Main Page: Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour - Life peer)Consumer Rights Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
My Lords, I will talk to Amendment 81D and in doing so I declare an interest as a director of the Property Redress Scheme Advisory Council. I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, and want to add briefly to her detailed comments.
The noble Baroness spoke about the £2.7 billion estimated to be held in clients’ funds. I might add that this was calculated by the industry as the amount that letting agents will be holding in tenants’ deposits and one month’s rent. That was how it was calculated; it seems a fairly sensible estimate. So, there is £2.7 billion in clients’ funds, some of which is at risk. There are already clients’ money protection schemes run by some of the organisations described by the noble Baroness. However, if the letting agent is not covered for client money protection both the landlords and the tenants stand to lose their money. If it is not one of the estate agents or one of these big organisation schemes, which are not compulsory other than for the members of that organisation, these tenants and landlords—it is both—would lose their money. The amendment is designed to protect both parties in the event that an agent goes bust or misappropriates the clients’ funds, as it covers any losses through the actions of the letting agent.
The consumer protection offered by this amendment would be financed by the industry itself and would not need the financial backing that the Government currently provide—I am not sure that the noble Baroness mentioned that point but I thought I should highlight it. At the moment it is a voluntary protection, and it works for a lot of the industry. There are forces in play which could protect the moneys owed to the landlord or tenant if something goes wrong with the letting agent. However, there are many letting agents which are not a part of such an organisation. There are two voluntary schemes that I know of, one of which was mentioned by the noble Baroness. All this amendment seeks to do is to protect the very people who are most at risk: a landlord or tenant using a letting agent which is not part of a larger organisation. This would turn a voluntary scheme into a compulsory scheme overseen in the way the noble Baroness described. If we ever got to a vote on this, I would support it.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I repeat my declaration of interests as chair of the National Trading Standards Board. Of particular relevance here is that we fund the National Trading Standards Estate Agency Team, which is responsible for issuing individual banning or warning orders under the Estate Agents Act 1979, maintaining a public register of such banning or warning orders, and approving and monitoring consumer redress schemes. Of course, those activities apply specifically to estate agents; they do not cover letting agents. As my noble friend Lady Hayter said when she introduced the amendment, it is noticeable that there are occasions when estate agents are banned under the Estate Agents Act and then reopen as letting agents. As far as many members of the public are concerned, there is not much difference between them.
The purpose of the amendments is extremely helpful. First, they address the problem that is becoming increasingly an issue for estate agents of trying to charge both the seller and the buyer for the same transaction. I have to say, I find this an extraordinary process because my understanding of the word “agent” is that you are acting on behalf of somebody. How can you act on behalf of both the seller and the purchaser? There is clearly a conflict of interest. It is not clear that anyone benefits from this arrangement, apart from those estate agents that claim fees from both sides of the transaction.
It is an anomaly that letting agents are treated differently from estate agents. I would have thought that that is something it would be sensible to address as part of this process. I know that the Government are keen to avoid duplication and so on, so why are they not moving towards treating estate agents and letting agents in the same way and by the same regulation process?
The point that has been made about the consumer protection of clients’ money by letting agencies is, again, unanswerable. I find it extraordinary that with this particular type of transaction there is not the sort of protection that you would expect in most other instances where a professional or so-called professional body is holding money on your behalf. I hope that the Minister will be positive about the themes in these amendments and try to ensure that we can incorporate those principles somewhere in the Bill before it goes much further.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Before the noble Baroness leaves that point, I think she said that if you move towards a system of regulation of letting agencies it would be necessary to set up a new system for banning and warning orders. Why is it not possible to graft that on to the existing system for estate agents?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The noble Lord makes the fair point that a precedent exists. However, if you are going to introduce provisions into a new area, it is necessary to look at the detail, to consult and so on.
Baroness Crawley
My Lords, I, too, support the amendments in this group. This is a vital issue for us all. The language of children’s protection has to be modernised. We rightly rail against pornography and violence and the abusive exposure of young children to those things, but the insidious manipulation of children when it comes to the payday lending industry can no longer be overlooked or seen as a lesser evil. Those puppets are built like children’s grandmothers and grandfathers. They are authority figures that kids look up to—certainly the ones I have seen. We all know that the misuse of money, as the noble Baroness has said, can lead to terrible family misery, and we harm children—often for the rest of their lives, as noble Lords have said—if we make popular for them the notion that money can be procured cheaply, and dress it up to sound like fun or a solution to their family’s pain.
The Advertising Standards Authority, speaking about advertising rules on this subject, states that:
“The protection of young people is at the heart of the rules”.
It goes on to say that advertising “must be socially responsible”. I fail to see what could be socially responsible when it comes to payday loan advertising at usurious rates, as the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury put it. Member states of the European Community—which I believe we still are at present—are urged by Article 27 of the audiovisual media services directive to,
“take appropriate measures to ensure that television broadcasts by broadcasters under their jurisdiction do not include any programmes which might seriously impair the physical, mental or moral development of minors”.
I suggest to the Minister that the Bill’s inclusion of this group of amendments would be an appropriate measure.
In conclusion, I read recently that the world’s top 10 PR companies, including UK companies, have said that they will not represent clients that deny climate change. What a powerful signal it would be if those PR firms and their advertisers took a similar course of action when it came to their industry being approached to procure payday loan advertisements. I urge the noble Baroness to use the opportunity of the Bill to stop this practice.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I rise briefly to support Amendment 105B, and perhaps I may tender some advice to the Minister. I suspect that this is one of those issues that, were it to be put to a vote in the House at Report stage, it would not be a happy moment for the Government, who would oppose it. However, I am sure that the Minister supports the objectives here.
We are all clear about how wrong it is for companies to be targeting advertising material at children and to rely on pester power to deliver what they want. My reason for speaking is because I agree with everything that has been said in this debate bar about two sentences. Those two sentences were spoken by my noble friend Lord Mitchell. Although he did not mean it, he gave the impression that somehow the cuddly illegal money lender, the loan shark operating in the pub who threatens to kneecap you if you do not pay up, is somehow preferable. I do not regard the payday loans companies as necessarily preferable, but we have to be conscious that one of the consequences of tightening up on the payday loan market will be that more people will seek recourse to illegal money lenders.
I chair the National Trading Standards Board, and one of the things we fund is the Illegal Money Lending Team for England and the Illegal Money Lending Team for Wales. Those teams are only scratching the surface of the problems that exist around illegal money lenders. They are very nasty individuals who are quite happy to squeeze money out of individuals in perhaps the same way as these corporate entities do—except that they do so using violence and all sorts of intimidation. Some of the cases that have been pursued by the illegal money lending teams are horrifying. Illegal money lenders use their power and strength to intimidate vulnerable people and families, including rape of the women concerned, beatings and other attacks. These are organised criminals who sometimes operate in small groups and sometimes as part of bigger networks. We have to be extremely cautious. When the Government accept these amendments or something similar to them either now or at the Report stage, I hope that they will look at what else needs to be done to protect the public from illegal operators as opposed to the legal ones we are talking about in this group of amendments.
Baroness Drake
My Lords, I support all of the amendments in the group, but I want particularly to speak to Amendment 105P. The mere existence of the payday loans, high-cost consumer credit market is to me a consumer detriment, particularly for vulnerable consumers who access it, but of course that is not an issue which is up for debate under these amendments. The FCA remit is to regulate markets, not to outlaw or to ban these companies. Only the Government can drive the policy needed to secure for not-for-profit affordable lenders sufficient capital liquidity to provide an alternative source of credit. Amendment 105P seeks to address the issue, because notwithstanding the regulation of payday lenders, the need for affordable credit still remains for a particularly vulnerable group of people. As I say, only the Government can drive the policy to address this issue. In the mean time, given that the payday loan market exists, the demand side has certain key characteristics with which we are all familiar. A high proportion of borrowers experience financial distress. Many will come from less well-off socioeconomic groups and will have few assets. A significant number of borrowers will have two or more loans, exposing them to unsustainable and spiralling debt.
Many borrowers get payday loans to cover basic needs, including the needs of their children, yet many are in acute repayment difficulties. According to the CMA, more than one-third of loans were not repaid on time or at all, often bringing considerable consumer harm relative to the amounts that were borrowed in the first instance. That is a demographic crying out for intrusion by the Government to create a sustainable market for affordable credit, as these people will still be vulnerable to the need for that credit. Amendment 105P turns its attention to the fact that the standing need for affordable credit for this vulnerable demographic has to be addressed by the Government.
Amendment 105P also captures the argument that the introduction of a broader levy funding base should not be a lost opportunity to significantly expand the availability of a free debt advice service. That is a compelling argument. By comparison, the new pension freedoms and choice agenda due in April 2015 comes with a guaranteed guidance service on the assumption—quite rightly—that the position of pension savers and consumers in the marketplace will be more vulnerable to poor decision-making without such guaranteed guidance. A levy is being raised from among the relevant providers of financial services which is to be dedicated to funding that guaranteed guidance.
No doubt the argument will be made that significant numbers who would benefit do not seek debt advice and that the allocation of funding to a debt advice service has to be proportionate to the demand for such guidance. My response to that is to say that the Government should take the lead in stimulating or creating the demand and the take-up for that debt advice service. I am sure that the proposed pension guarantee guidance would not be deemed a great policy success if few people took advantage of it—even more so with vulnerable people exposed to unsustainable debt and high-cost consumer credit, missing the opportunity to expand the availability and the take-up of a free debt advice service would not be a policy success. Amendment 105 in particular says that we are dealing with a particular manifestation of the need for credit. However, even in addressing the payday loan companies, the systemic problem will still need to be solved: how people can get access to affordable credit and how they can get access to and use a free debt advice service.
I should perhaps declare an interest in that I am a member of the TPAS board which is currently involved in delivering the pension guidance guarantee. Hopefully, that will not detract from the merits of my argument.