Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Harries of Pentregarth Excerpts

Friday 30th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

I understand that the noble Lord was talking about a subset of consultations, but this is my point: I think he accepted that there might, in any process, be exceptional circumstances where a consultation was not in person. I am just saying that, even in that narrow subset, there might be a reason for another person to be in the room. I am not talking about that specific point; I am trying, in general, to suggest that we should try to lay down some principles but not try to overengineer and cover every possible circumstance.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, I will respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone. She seemed to express a kind of common-sense view that of course we all agree that it is much better to have face-to-face interviews, and we have heard all sorts of evidence today from the medical profession and the legal profession about how that is much better. The noble Baroness thinks there should be a code of practice. I agree, but surely that code of practice should be about where there are exceptions. It would be much safer to have a Bill in which it is specified that interviews should be face to face, except for certain exceptions laid out in a code of practice. Surely it should be that way around in order that we have as safe a Bill as possible.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, the noble and right reverend Lord makes a really valid point about codes of practice. Codes of practice sometimes are not statutory, so it would need to be a statutory code. Apart from all that, we also know that codes of practice become outdated. In another area of my expertise, a statutory code of practice was agreed in 2011. Although it is unlawful today, it has still not been withdrawn by the Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I express my gratitude to everyone who has taken part in the debate. I make special mention of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, and the noble Lord, Lord Polak, who spoke about the death of their father and mother. Like everyone else, I am grateful for what may have been something that was quite difficult to contribute to the debate. I hope I have not left out anyone else out who has done that.

These amendments fall effectively into two categories. The first is the England and Wales category—what do you have to be in England and Wales to do?—and, secondly, and separately, in what circumstances is a face-to-face meeting between either the patient and the doctors or the patient and the panel required?

I will deal first with the position of England and Wales, raised by Amendment 60, from the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey. Currently, under the provisions of the Bill, the first declaration made by the patient, the second declaration made by the patient, the first assessment of the patient, the second assessment of the patient and assistance being given to the patient all have to take place in England and Wales. There was a range of other things that the noble Baroness wished to take place while the patient was in England and Wales—for example, switching from one doctor to another, which is a process. For my part, I think the Bill has broadly got right when you have to be in England and Wales. Having listened carefully to what the noble Baroness has said, I am not minded to suggest an amendment in relation to that, and I note that it was not picked up as an issue by other people.

The face-to-face issues were much more what the Committee, if I may say so, was interested in through the course of this debate. The effect of the debate has been, in effect, to identify four possibilities. First, Amendment 65 wants each of the occasions, namely the two doctors and the panel, to always involve a face-to-face meeting. Secondly, there should be a face-to-face meeting unless there are—I use this phrase without intending to pick up all the amendments—exceptional circumstances or practicability issues. Thirdly, the third amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, which he referred to, is that there should be, to use his language, a “statutory protocol” defining where there can be remote meetings, accepting that the norm is face to face. Fourthly, we could simply rely on the existing provisions of the Bill, which is that codes of practice can be issued by the Minister under the various provisions of the Bill saying when face to face is appropriate and when it is not.

The testimony—that is what it felt like—given of cases where remote has gone wrong have enormous power and I think we are all aware of circumstances where face to face will lead to much greater and better communication. The other side of the coin, which was referred to by the noble Baronesses, Lady Pidgeon and Lady Hayman, my noble friends Lady Jay and Lady Blackstone and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is that there will be circumstances where, if you insist on face to face, you are, in effect, excluding some people from this right when they should have it. There are arguments on both sides.

I come away with the strongest possible feeling that the Committee thinks that face to face where possible is best but that there will be circumstances where it is not appropriate. That brings me to my third and fourth possibilities. It is wrong and dangerous to try to use a phrase such as “reasonably practicable” or “exceptional”; more is required and guidance should be given. This is not a criticism—it is a congratulation—but I do not think the words “statutory protocol” are right, but I get from what the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, is saying that he wants something that has the force of regulations or something similar that says, “This is what we have in mind”. Whether that is a code of practice or a statutory protocol, I am not sure. I am sure it is not what is called a protocol, but it might be something quite like that. I think the right course for me is to go away and bring back something that satisfies the Committee that there will be something—a statutory protocol or a code of guidance—that indicates when face to face is appropriate or should be the norm, but gives the circumstances where it would not be, because I get the sense of anxiety about that. I hope, in the light of that approach, noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not to press their amendments.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I cannot quite understand why the noble and learned Lord is so unwilling to have in the Bill that the presumption should be face to face, with exceptions written into a protocol? Why is he objecting to having it that way round?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

As a lawyer, going for a presumption is wrong. I think the right thing to do is say something such as the norm is face to face, but there could be circumstances in which you may not do that. You should give maximum flexibility.