Select Committee on Governance of the House

Lord Hain Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

I very much echo the sentiments just expressed by the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin).

Change and modernisation in the House has always been problematic. I recall that as Leader of the House of Commons between 2003 and 2005, I tried to persuade the House to take its security seriously. The director general of MI5 and the police wanted a professional to be in charge of security, which was a nightmare, frankly. There was strong resistance to change—of the kind that we are now seeing in relation to splitting the roles of Clerk and chief executive—until events conspired to overtake those who were blocking change. Hon. Members may remember the Greenpeace activists scaling Big Ben, the flour bomb at Prime Minister’s questions and, of course, the huntsmen invading the Chamber itself. Only then did we move to appoint a full-time professional head of security, which nobody in their right mind would now question.

I believe that in future years nobody will question the separation of the functions of the Clerk and the chief executive, with two separate appointments. It will seem like the common sense that I believe it is now. At the moment, we have a part-time Clerk and a part-time chief executive, although I mean no disrespect at all to the holders of the post, with whom I have worked closely and whom I admire.

The Clerk’s onerous parliamentary duties occupy the majority of the working day, and involve managing all the immensely complex procedural issues that surround the legislative and other functions of the House. In my view, those duties can be carried out only with the experience and specialist knowledge of a Clerk, such as Sir Robert Rogers, and his able deputies. However, everybody who, like me, has had the privilege to be involved on the inside of the Commons knows full well that the chief executive duties inevitably have to fit around and take second priority to the primary procedural duty. That is the truth of the matter.

As the chief executive, the Clerk now has a splendid building under his charge—a UNESCO world heritage site that attracts well over 1 million visitors each year from all over the world—and oversees more than 1,750 staff, which is equivalent to a very large business, and has a budget of over £200 million. In addition, almost the same number of staff work for Members, bringing the total number of people on the precincts for whom the Clerk is responsible in his role as CEO to more than 3,500.

As the corporate officer of the House of Commons, the Clerk is required to enter into contracts on behalf of the House and to acquire and manage land and property. As the accounting officer, he has responsibilities for public finance, resource accounting and internal control, and he attends meetings of the House’s audit committees. He is responsible for good corporate governance, meeting social and environmental regulations, and retaining and motivating top-quality employees. He must have an awareness of complex employment law, fair remuneration and contracts. He must also introduce proper systems and controls for effective risk management.

Those are onerous duties in today’s litigious, closely regulated employment and administrative environment. I do not think that the skill set required to undertake those tasks in the modern age is necessarily compatible with the skill set required to be Clerk of the House. The question of which role would be superior is a red herring. Both would be answerable to the Speaker, who is the pre-eminent figure.

In summary, my experience as Leader of the House has convinced me that the two posts should be separated. The extra costs involved could perhaps be offset by questioning the continued employment of the director general of facilities. Finally, why should the Clerk have a superior salary to the Speaker or the Prime Minister?

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[Sir Menzies Campbell]

Separation, if you like. If that happens, the next 18 months and indeed for a long time after, it is going to be enormously testing of every procedure of this House. The volume of legislation will be enormous, and the number of occasions on which the Speaker, and indeed the House—and Front Benchers too—will require expert advice will also be enormous. On that basis, I, at least, am surprised that when it came to this appointment, an acquaintance with parliamentary procedure was thought to be sufficient. In my view, a detailed knowledge of it is essential.

I have some sympathy with those who wish to divide the role into two, but I am concerned—more so than the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain)—about the possibilities, indeed the problems, that might be created by two co-equals. What happens if there is a genuine dispute? Is the Speaker to be drawn in as some kind of arbiter? What will be the chain of responsibility? Who will answer to whom? That is why, when the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young) was talking about a chief operating officer, I was rather disappointed that the idea was so readily dismissed in some parts of the House. I hope that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) will give it serious consideration .

It should also be remembered that the Clerk of the House is a key part of the constitution of the United Kingdom. If that were not so, the appointment would not be made by the monarch.

[Mr Hain]

I entirely agree with what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just said about the Clerk’s constitutional role. That is a matter of fact, and I am not suggesting that we challenge it. However, I also think that there should be a separate chief executive role. I do not see why there should not be two senior figures, who will behave as senior figures do, as in any other organisation. Finance directors may disagree with chief executives, but they find a solution, and we could expect the same from those who will take these two roles.

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[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

I support what has been said about the need for us to show support for the Chair and to be respectful of it. I must, however, pick a bone with the former Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), who said that he had had no support for his modernisation measures. I remember standing at the Dispatch Box as shadow Leader of the House and being shoulder to shoulder with him on that issue. I got a right pasting for it. So he did get my support, but it was not always easy.

[Mr Hain]

I am grateful for it.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

Thank you.

It has been mentioned that the Clerk of the House has an important role as our adviser on the constitution, procedure and business. The role is important not only to us but to those in many other countries who consult our Clerk because he or she is the leading expert on those constitutional matters. As the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) said, we now face big issues relating to the operation of the devolution settlement, human rights and other matters, and we need authoritative advice to be given in a definitive way by someone with the standing of the Clerk of the House. The Clerk of the House is paid at the rate of a Lord Justice of Appeal—not a High Court judge—because he is in a comparable position of authority, or so it has always been thought.

I want to give the House two examples of the kind of advice that I have seen our Clerk give. For my sins, I sat on the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill. We had experts, academics and all the top lawyers appearing before the Committee; everybody came to give evidence over a long period. When we read the report, however, we can see that the most authoritative witness was Sir Robert Rogers, the Clerk of the House. People disagreed about that issue, but no one disagreed that it was fantastic to see him giving evidence to us; he could point to the 1671 or the 1678 resolution of the House, for example, and express the matter in question in a simple, straightforward way.

Similarly, when I was serving on the Standards and Privileges Committee, we had to deal with the difficult issues arising from the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s report on phone hacking. We had to decide whether there had been contempt of the House, and whether issues of privilege arose from that. It was the Clerk of the House who gave the most convincing and authoritative advice. Someone needs to be able to give such advice. A position of authority is required, and I would not want to see that position diminished.

I do not disagree with the point that we also need modern, efficient business practice here in the House. Sir Kevin Tebbit looked at that matter in 2007 and decided that a chief operating officer—a deputy Clerk with commercial experience from outside this place—was the answer. We need to look at all these questions. Can we split the role? Is there a case for a deputy with commercial experience? For once, I think it should be the House itself that does this. We should not bring in outside experts. We have had the Ibbs, Braithwaite and Tebbit reports; now let us do this ourselves. I support the motion.