Natural Capital Committee
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Grantchester (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, for tabling this debate this afternoon. It gives the Committee the opportunity to debate the first report of the Natural Capital Committee, issued in April this year, following its establishment in May 2012. There has always been a debate around the relative merits of the environment when set against economic development and around how to translate this into public policy priorities. The debate initially focused on sustainability, with the thought that competing claims had to be balanced between two polarities. When English Nature was set up some 10 years ago, sustainability was likened to a stool with three legs: the first leg being the economy, the second the environment and the third, in equal balance, being communities or society. At that time, debates contested whether it was possible to balance these competing aims and whether economic benefit would take precedence or the environment should be given an overriding veto.
The difficulties in settling this debate can be readily appreciated when there is no clear and independent assessment of value. When the environment, or elements in it, can be described, in the classical sense, as a free good, how can it be assigned a value? Meanwhile, the degradation of our environment here in the UK and internationally could not be denied. The effects of waste and pollution in one country are often visited on its neighbours. Nature and the environment cannot simply be seen as isolated elements or units in a biodiversity action plan, such as one to increase songbirds. Instead, the natural environment needs to be assessed and valued as an ecosystem. No longer can this be seen as an either/or debate; instead it must now be recognised that nature and the environment represent a complicated, interrelated system. A properly functioning natural environment is the foundation of sustained economic growth and prospering communities. It bears repeating that we need to create a green economy, where economic growth and the integrity of natural resources sustain each other and the consequences of actions and decisions better reflect the importance of the environment.
Although some may find it reprehensible to try to assign value to natural capital, nevertheless the widening recognition of other assets, such as intellectual property and brand values, perhaps points to natural capital accounting as the best way forward, especially across continents, cultures and national governance divergences. In advising the Government on the state of natural capital in England, the Natural Capital Committee set out to do three main things: first, provide advice on when, where and how natural assets may be being used unsustainably; secondly, advise the Government on how they should prioritise action to protect and improve natural capital and the environment through its methodology; and, thirdly, advise on research priorities to improve future advice and decisions on enhancing natural resources and natural capital.
In reporting directly to the Cabinet’s Economic Affairs Committee, it must work across government and have an interdepartmental profile. It will not be lost on many that this is where it is most needed—under the nose of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The committee could be seen to have already had an effect on resource allocation and decision-making through its advice on accounting for forest assets in response to the recommendations of the Independent Panel on Forestry, which was set up following the disastrous disregard for woodland assets in the early days of the coalition.
The committee has produced an interesting and thought-provoking first report. The Woodland Trust urged the Government to adopt the committee’s recommendations, stating that the extent to which the NCC informs policy will be a key test of the natural environment White Paper and its ability to achieve a paradigm shift in how nature is valued. With the disastrous lack of border controls and risk analysis of tree diseases in the UK, better protection of our natural assets means, to the Woodland Trust, stronger and better enforced planning protection and robust action on tree diseases. The UK’s woodlands are vulnerable to the effect of historical fragmentation and a continual drift towards decreasing diversity.
The report made reference to trends in UK fisheries but made no reference in its recommendations to the marine environment. This is perhaps a glaring omission that the committee should correct as soon as possible. In the four years since the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 was passed, the designation of the first tranche of up to 31 marine conservation zones is still awaited. These sites represent less than a quarter of the sites proposed to achieve an ecologically coherent network, known as an ECN in the jargon. The designation of a network of marine conservation zones is vital to stemming the degradation of the marine environment. Does the noble Lord agree that this is perhaps one of the most pressing issues that his department should be tackling? Will he put the marine environment at the heart of the debate on the EU fisheries policy? Will he ask the Natural Capital Committee to undertake some work on this for inclusion in any report it might produce in 2014?
The committee made 13 recommendations in its report. Will the Government be making a more comprehensive reply beyond the succinct, one-and-a-half-page letter dated 22 May 2013? I believe that the committee deserves better. It is interesting that the committee wishes to develop a framework to define and measure natural capital by drawing on data across departments. If it follows the UN’s global standard known as the System of Environmental-Economic Accounting, will that fall foul of the UK’s data protection laws? It will be interesting to hear the accountancy profession’s assessment of this, as well as of the Prince of Wales’s Accounting for Sustainability project.
The accounting profession will be very familiar with the notion of a risk register as set out in the second recommendation made by the committee. The risk register will identify a range of risks and make assessments against the size of the impact and against the likelihood of occurrences. Will the Minister comment on whether the Government see this as a useful tool to inform practical applications in policy and decision-making? While some may find it difficult to identify the practical usefulness of natural capital accounts, risk registers throughout government applicable to ecosystems and regions could develop into a useful policy assessment tool. Are the Government actively considering this recommendation?
In the thesis undertaken by Mr Christopher Baldock of Imperial College London, Opportunities for Development, he states that the main reasons given for the lack of use and integration of natural capital accounts in decision-making were identified as the lack of a recognised framework of evaluation methodologies, too many ad hoc initiatives hampering development and the lack of recognised uses and application of accounts. Have the Government considered how this could be tackled and improved? How will they identify and embed best practice in the uptake of methodologies across the public estate?
The report identifies the United Nations Statistical Commission of the System for Environmental-Economic Accounts as a major step forward and, importantly, that this system uses the same accounting conventions as the UN system of natural accounts. The report sees UK environmental accounts as limited to a number of physical flows and natural resource assets accounts that include only partial aspects of natural capital. They are not currently aligned with ecosystem accounting and do not provide a fully integrated account of the stocks, flows and changes over time. Can the Minister update us on whether his department has asked the Office for National Statistics to prioritise activity on this?
Will the Government press for an international natural capital accounts body to co-ordinate efforts and collaboration between states and between corporate and international bodies? There is a need to link up and demonstrate the importance and usefulness of accounts if natural capital accountancy is not to fade slowly away from being central to the green economy.
Much debate could be had on each of the other recommendations of the report, not least its comments on agriculture and the natural capital of the countryside in relation to bees and other pollinators, a subject that I know is most dear to the Minister. It must be borne in mind that agriculture exists in a food chain, and that the actions of all in that chain, not least of food retailers in setting the price of food that the consumer pays, have a bearing on agriculture’s ability to respond. These are important matters in the redesigning of the common agricultural policy. The five lines on this in recommendation 13 are incredibly flippant and risk alienating one of the most important communities whose good will is vital in maintaining the nation’s natural capital—the farming community.
I end with one or two remarks on offsetting. The report has merely one sentence on this, which states:
“Offsetting and other forms of compensation are explored after a clear set of principles and a policy framework have been developed”.
Quite simply, offsetting means that if a developer is going to build something that will damage or destroy a habitat of conservation value, it must buy a biocredit to compensate for that loss elsewhere. I find this incredibly dangerous because it sends the mixed message that it is somehow all right to denigrate our natural assets in exchange for making a payment to a good cause. It is the equivalent of having an environmental swear box. Disconcertingly, this was picked up and referred to in the Secretary of State’s page-and-a-half letter to the committee, which stated that the Treasury was particularly engaged in exploring this potential. While the Government may warmly welcome the committee’s ongoing input, I urge them to dismiss this as a very retrograde and dangerous activity to promote.
That said, the committee’s first report is very provocative. The state of natural capital in the UK is at a critical point. Recognition of the committee’s work from the Government who set it up must amount to more than lip service. With the debates over decarbonisation targets and climate change at the forefront of public policy, the Minister’s department should respond more constructively to the committee’s recommendations. I look forward to the review of the Natural Capital Committee in 2014.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
I start by thanking my noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer for raising this important issue today. I welcome the chance to discuss the vital topic of England’s natural capital. As my noble friend set out, our natural capital provides a range of essential services to society. We all rely on the benefits of natural capital for our clean air, water, food, energy and well-being.
The contents of my noble friend’s speech and, indeed, that of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, draw me to make a couple of declarations of interest. I have a farm with a river running through it and some trees growing on it, so I hope noble Lords will appreciate that I come to this with an interest in, and a limited amount of knowledge of, some of the issues.
Lord Grantchester
The Minister’s comments remind me that I omitted to declare my interests in the farming field.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, natural capital therefore underpins two of the Government’s key priorities: encouraging economic growth and enhancing the natural environment. These two agendas are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the sensible use of our natural assets is an essential precondition of our prosperity.
In its first report, The State of Natural Capital, published in April this year, the Natural Capital Committee made just this compelling argument: that long-term economic growth will be undermined if we continue to erode our natural capital. The Government agree: long-term prosperity is possible only if we preserve the foundations on which our economy and well-being are based.
It is therefore crucial that we measure, value and protect our stocks of natural capital. Indeed, this is why the Government set up the independent Natural Capital Committee in 2012, the first of its kind in the world. The committee has been asked to provide expert, independent advice to government on the state of England’s natural capital assets. In the past, the benefits that flow from our natural capital have too often been taken for granted, and as a result our assets have become eroded.
The job of the Natural Capital Committee is to highlight where we are not on a sustainable path and advise the Government on how they should prioritise action to protect and improve natural capital. This will help us deliver on the White Paper commitment to leave the natural environment in a better state than that in which it was inherited.
I read with great interest the Natural Capital Committee’s first report earlier this year, which set out its views on why valuing, maintaining and restoring natural capital is important. It also presented initial evidence of the benefits of incorporating natural capital into decision-making at all levels.
As my right honourable friend Owen Paterson’s and the Economic Secretary to the Treasury’s official response to The State of Natural Capital makes clear, the Government welcome and fully support the analysis offered in it. However, the specific issue of what resources have been reallocated in light of the Natural Capital Committee’s assessments is as yet difficult to address. I shall discuss that a little more in a moment.
The committee’s first major publication was a framework-setting document that principally set out what it was going to do to inform its next annual report. It contained no substantive recommendations to the Government that required an immediate change in resource allocation. Rather, the majority of the recommendations referred to work that the NCC is undertaking. For example, one of the key recommendations was to develop metrics to value and measure changes to natural capital. This is a job that the committee is undertaking. It is currently doing excellent work to advance our understanding of England’s natural capital assets. This will be reported on in the second state of natural capital report.
As we have yet to be advised to take specific substantive action, it is not yet possible to attempt meaningfully to hold government to account on the Natural Capital Committee’s recommendations. One potential exception to this is the Government’s work to develop national natural capital accounts.
The Natural Capital Committee recommended that work led by the Office for National Statistics to produce UK environmental accounts should be,
“given the greatest possible support by Government”.
I can confirm that that is the case and, despite the scale of the challenge involved, work is progressing well. My department and the Office for National Statistics are working closely with the Natural Capital Committee to ensure that the accounts are completed on target by 2020. Resource had already been allocated to this work.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked whether we will produce a full response to the committee’s next report. We are very much looking forward to it. We will respond appropriately once we have seen what the report contains and have had chance to consider it.
Another area where resources are being committed to the important subject of natural capital is research—my noble friend Lady Miller referred to that. Following discussions with the committee, the Natural Environment Research Council recently announced that it was contributing £5 million to a programme that will deliver on the research priorities of the NCC and its aim to improve understanding of how the state of the natural environment affects the performance of the economy and individual well-being. This is good news and another sign of how seriously the work of the committee is being taken.
In addition to the Natural Environment Research Council’s important contribution, the Natural Capital Committee is undertaking some research of its own to enhance our understanding of natural capital, which it will advise on in its second state of natural capital report. We are very much looking forward to reading that report, the development of which is under way. It will be submitted to the Economic Affairs Committee in early 2014.
It is, of course, too early to speculate what resource implications this may have for the Government, but we will consider them at the appropriate time. I appreciate that there is eagerness to push forward with the natural capital agenda, and that eagerness is shared by Defra and the rest of government.
My noble friend Lady Miller highlighted the importance of soils, and I echo her enthusiasm for them. We recognise that soils are an essential part of our natural resources and support food production, carbon storage, water filtration, biodiversity and wildlife. I can find little to disagree with in what she said about them.
She also spoke about bees and pollinators. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, also mentioned them. Noble Lords may like to know that today we are holding a workshop of interested NGOs and other parties on the national pollinator strategy. We are working towards the publication of a document at the end of the year which will go for consultation with a view to finalising it in spring 2014. I am excited about that.
My noble friend asked about the common agricultural policy and the extent to which we are moving in what one might describe as away from subsidising production towards paying for environmental benefit. The United Kingdom has always made clear that we would like to move away from subsidies in the long run. We support a greener cap with the emphasis on Pillar 2, recognising that there is scope for using taxpayers’ money to pay farmers for public goods that the market otherwise would not reward, such as protecting the natural environment and supporting biodiversity. We negotiated hard to secure a final outcome that was a significant improvement on the Commission’s original proposals, but it is very disappointing that we did not get as far as we would have liked. Securing the flexibility to transfer up to 15% from Pillar 1 to Pillar 2 was a good outcome of this set of negotiations. The Government have always made the case that transferring funding from Pillar 1, which is subsidy, to Pillar 2, which is in favour of the environment and the rural economy, represents the best use of taxpayers’ money while supporting farmers to deliver the valuable goods and services that the market left alone would not provide.
As part of our consultation on the implementation of the new cap in England, we would welcome the views of interested parties, including, of course, noble Lords, on how much that transfer should be. That consultation will commence shortly.
My noble friend also mentioned the Thames tunnel, but in the interests of economy of time, I hope she will forgive me if I leave that until the next debate.
My noble friend Lord Courtown mentioned work he has been doing in the north Swindon area, which I know well. He talked about retaining existing features—hedges, trees and so on—while conducting development between them. I congratulate him and thank him on that.
My noble friend asked about co-operation between Defra and other government departments on natural capital. The natural environment White Paper is a cross-government document. It contains a number of important cross-government commitments, and we have made good progress on them. We work closely with the Treasury and have produced new supplementary Green Book guidance for all government departments on valuing nature in policy appraisal. The Natural Capital Committee will report to the Chancellor’s Economic Affairs Committee. In the planning system, the new NPPF is a good outcome. I regularly meet Ministers from the Department for Communities and Local Government. There is also good work in the area of schools and health, so I can confirm to my noble friend that we work across government departments.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised a number of issues. In forestry, he will know that we have accepted the vast majority of the recommendations of the independent panel led by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, who we thank enormously for his work.
The noble Lord spoke about tree diseases and pests. He will know that since concerns about Chalara arose some 12 or 13 months ago, we have developed a risk register of pests and diseases, and we have progressed substantially with contingency planning. Both those elements were recommended in a report by the experts we convened.
He asked whether the Government will provide advice on marine conservation zones. The NCC’s terms of reference are very clear that the committee may not perform a watchdog or advocacy role with respect to government policy decisions or be policy prescriptive in its advice. However, the NCC is interested in all categories of natural capital and will provide advice on whether all assets are being used sustainably.
I am running out of time. If I have not answered all noble Lords’ questions, I will write to them. I ask your Lordships to accept that we have already shown international leadership in this field and no longer take our natural capital assets for granted. We recognise that natural capital is integral to delivering sustained, and sustainable, economic growth in England. As a result, the Government fully support the work of the Natural Capital Committee and are looking forward to its upcoming advice.
Agriculture: Common Agricultural Policy
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
Well, my Lords, that is indeed a question. In the context of the reduced CAP budget, the UK’s key aims for the CAP reform negotiations were to increase the resilience, market orientation and international competitiveness of EU agriculture; to improve the CAP’s capacity to deliver environmental outcomes; and to simplify the CAP for farmers and authorities. We want an efficient and responsive agricultural sector in the EU and globally, and we want the future CAP to achieve this.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I declare my interests in the countryside. Does the Minister’s department recognise that success in greening policies relies very heavily on good will and implementation from farmers? Is the cart before the horse in this instance? Will the Minister outline what the Government want to achieve from greening measures, rather than transferring funds into Pillar 2 from Pillar 1 simply because they can?
Lord De Mauley
I understand the noble Lord’s question, and others have asked that. The Government’s view is that environmental outcomes can be more targeted and more effective if they are delivered through Pillar 2. There will be a new set of environmental measures within Pillar 2 but we will honour the obligation in Pillar 1 to achieve the greening that is set down.
Horsemeat
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I declare my interest as a dairy farmer with experience of the food chain. In today’s industrial food chains, the situation that broke three weeks ago was never going to be the actions of one rogue supplier. Three weeks ago, my honourable friend the shadow environment Secretary of State, Mary Creagh, called on the Secretary of State to ensure that all horsemeat intended for human consumption is tested for substances harmful to human health such as bute. Why did the noble Lord’s department not order full testing and stipulate that horsemeat should be released only when it is clear from bute? Given that the evidence of what has gone on is destroyed when products are withdrawn from the shelves, will the FSA now take overall control of all product testing?
Food: Waste
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the waste review commits us to exploring the potential for a successor to Courthauld 2. The UK Government are working with WRAP and current Courthauld signatories and trade bodies to determine the best way forward following the completion of the second phase of the Courthauld commitment and the agreed outcome will aim to build on the significant progress made so far. As I say, the agreed outcome will build on progress and it is anticipated that we will launch Courthauld 3 in the spring of this year.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, under the Waste Strategy 2000, the Government have strict targets for recycling household waste. By 2020 the amount of biodegradable municipal waste for landfill must be reduced by 35% of the amount produced in 1995. Do the Government have plans to go further, such as a ban on all food waste to landfill?
Lord De Mauley
No, my Lords. We do not plan to ban all food waste to landfill. However, we are making significant progress and we will continue to make significant progress—building, I may say, in a spirit of friendliness, on progress made by the previous Government.
Public Bodies (Water Supply and Water Quality Fees) Order 2012
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his introduction and explanation of the order. I will not detain the Committee for long, as it seems largely straightforward.
The issue is the switch of payments for the regulatory function of the Drinking Water Inspectorate, which will be made in future by customers rather than by the taxpayer, and how this will work. The Minister has explained that the Public Bodies Act 2011 enables him to change the funding arrangements to reflect the fact that if an industry needs regulation in undertaking an activity that could cause adverse effects in others, then the industry should face the regulatory cost. There is no more important product than safe, clean, hygienic drinking water. The change will comply with the Hampton review recommendations for better regulation and with the Defra charging handbook strategy aims. It will bring funding into line with that for other water regulators, such as Ofwat and the Environment Agency.
The new system will ensure that regulatory costs are recovered in proportion to the individual relative regulatory burden, serving as an indicator of the relative efficiency and effectiveness of each water company or supplier. Furthermore, only one of the 21 responses from the 33 key stakeholders consulted did not support this policy change. I note the proposed charging system will apply to all water companies and that none is classified as a micro-business, with the result that there are no discriminatory burdens that will weigh disproportionately.
The cost of the regulatory function of the inspectorate is in the round rather small, and the Minister may well say this is a tidy-up exercise, with the modest cost to consumers judged to be more than outweighed by the non-monetarised benefits already highlighted. Nevertheless, I would like the Minister to expand where he can on some of the potential implications and the public information for customers.
The Explanatory Memorandum explains that the total charge being transferred from taxpayers to customers amounts to £1.9 million, less than a 0.1% increase to most individual bills, or around 15p per annum. The 13th report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee updates this figure to include unmetered and metered households to produce an estimate of 9p or 10p per annum. While noble Lords will not be expecting front page exposure in the Daily Mail of “the thin end of the wedge” even if charges were to increase, can the Minister say what would trigger concern and action on any report to Ofwat? Will Ofwat’s approval be required for all and any increases? Will it be looking at cost control and cost-cutting measures if it is to address the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s concern that the change in the charging system does not appear to promote economy in the inspectorate’s delivery. The scrutiny committee had asked for more clarity on how the charging structure will promote this effectiveness and economy, and I thank the Minister for his further explanation in his introduction of the order.
In the Minister’s officials’ meeting with the industry has any discussion taken place on how water companies will spread the charge across their customer base? Will the charge be made per customer bill, or will it be volume related, a question especially pertinent to metered supplies and high-volume commercial operations? Will there be consistency across the regions, will intercompany performances be monitored and published, and will this include Wales?
Will the Minister indicate whether the water companies will be highlighting the admittedly small charge with a separate line on the face of customers’ bills, even if only annually, and therefore fulfilling the very reason to make the charging change? No doubt this will require public information arrangements to be made for customers.
Finally, water affordability is becoming an ever increasing concern to more and more households. While the Minister may be reluctant to go into detail today on the proposed social tariff scheme, will he at least confirm by stating the commitment that this fee will qualify to be included under the social tariff umbrella?
I have no intention not to agree with this order. But if the Minister could indicate any understanding on how this change will be implemented, it will be of great interest to consumers.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the Government are committed to everyone in England and Wales having access to clean, wholesome drinking water and keeping water bills at an affordable level. Approval of this order will enable the Drinking Water Inspectorate to recover the cost of regulatory activities from the water companies which benefit from them. This change in funding will result in a saving, as I said earlier, of about £2 million to the taxpayer each year and may increase the average annual customer bill by about 10p, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, mentioned. He asked about the way in which the charge will be passed on. Explicitly in answer to his question, Ofwat must approve any passing on of charges. Therefore, if water companies propose an inappropriate means of passing on charges, it would have the chance to object.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about the consistency of how charges will be passed on. For instance, will it be a separate line on the bill? On the one hand, that is up to the companies to put forward a proposal but, on the other hand, how it is dealt with is subject to Ofwat approval. It will be included in the social tariff scheme.
To the extent that I have not answered the noble Lord’s questions, perhaps I may write to him.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, the Minister has done very well in answering all the questions but one, which was regarding Ofwat having to agree to any changes and increases in the charges from year to year.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the cost will not be subject to Ofwat control but will require approval by Ministers. I hope that that satisfies the noble Lord. On the basis of that, I thank the noble Lord for his questions and I ask the Committee to agree the order.
EUC Report: EU Freshwater Policy
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness’s speeches are never useless or worthless. We have enjoyed her contribution.
Clean water is a fundamental element of life. Traditionally, we have enjoyed it without thought at the turn of a tap, and have used and discarded it without thought. With climate change bringing huge volatility between droughts and floods, we are all now fully aware that water must be managed effectively. I declare my interest as a farmer in Cheshire.
The report by Sub-Committee D is very timely. I thank my noble friend Lord Carter of Coles, the committee chairman, for his excellent introduction and his committee for its coherent analysis and recommendations. It has produced its views at a time when the Commission, member states and interested agencies and groups have been in discussion on fresh-water policy before publication of the blueprint. The water framework directive has generally been accepted as a force for good. It has put the element of water into all environmental analyses from many diverse organisations and has had the added value of fostering co-operation between member states, most of which have now undertaken river basin management plans.
As each element in the transition to better management of water resources develops, it is imperative to take stock, assess and share best practice. The report informs a fitness check necessary to underpin the blueprint. There is general agreement that the implementation of river basin management plans has been challenging, but very instructive and informative. It has highlighted the challenge of costs, the challenge of the realities of gathering information and conducting assessments, and the need for innovation and an inclusive approach, not least because of the unforeseen problems that have been discovered.
The report has been welcomed by the Government and the EU Commission. Both will share in the assessment and challenges as policy develops. In general, the Government responses reveal that they largely understand many elements of the just short of 40 recommendations, are aware of the issues and are planning to provide answers to the challenges. The recently published blueprint will build in and on the common implementation strategy to continue to provide a positive role to bring about the framework’s directional objective—namely, to make water use in the EU more sustainable.
The blueprint outlines a three-tier approach: first, improving implementation of current water policy via the water framework directive; secondly, increasing the integration and recognition of water policy objectives into all relevant policy areas; and, thirdly, responding to lessons learnt and gaps in the current framework. It will undertake these elements by issuing guidance and developing existing measures, largely avoiding new legislative proposals.
That brings me to tonight’s debate and the issues highlighted by noble Lords. I draw attention to the cost of water—nearly all noble Lords highlighted this, including the noble Lords, Lord Carter and Lord Cameron, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford—and how we have to steer a course towards the right price and the right pricing policies. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that these need to be correct for the resource and that measures such as the social tariff—which we look forward to seeing from the Government—can be introduced where needed to reduce pressures.
The noble Lords, Lord Carter and Lord Cameron, raised the issue of reform of the abstraction regime and highlighted the urgency with which this must now be brought forward, even though there are significant challenges ahead. The third issue to find commonality in the debate is that of agriculture and its share of the problems vis-à-vis the urban perspective.
I go along with other noble Lords, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, in their understanding of how we must pay attention to priority substances that will arise in future, such that we have our eyes on how we can effect changes and improvements in that regard before they become a growing problem.
Other noble Lords were also eloquent in highlighting the core of the report, especially the importance of capture management, strategic planning, and decisions being made within an effective system that takes account of more than one level of governance. The co-operation between companies will be vital. The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, highlighted the problem of how to effect this on a national basis.
Lastly, I will share with the noble Lord, Lord Carter, the highlighting of water footprints for the future, and ask the Minister how much attention is being given by the Government to water reuse? Also, in what areas does HMG consider that they can be most effective? Following on from that, I will also ask the Minister about future plans for carbon disclosure reports and water disclosure reports, which I understand Defra is co-funding. Which government department is taking the lead on this and how is Defra co-ordinating its policies with that department?
In conclusion, the debate has highlighted the vital issue of water management. In future its importance can only increase.
Plant Health (Forestry) (Amendment) Order 2012
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 12 months ago)
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The Earl of Mar and Kellie
My Lords, I would like to apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that I was not here for the first few minutes of his opening remarks. I also declare an interest in that I am yet another woodland owner from Scotland. I would like to ask two questions. First, what is the advice likely to be about the use of infected and possibly infected timber, and what is to happen to the 80 million ash trees in Great Britain? I am certain that noble Lords will be familiar with the fact that ash is used in furniture, framing, in coach building, and by Morgan cars, among others. It certainly bends well in the steam box, and it is, of course, premium firewood. As a supplier of firewood, that is probably my real interest. Have the Government come up with advice on what we are to do with all these trees?
My second point is, with my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, to wonder why British tree nurseries have not been growing saplings. Why has it been uneconomic to do so, and why has it been economic to take them to Europe, to grow them further and then export them back? Finally, before we get too suicidal about this; I understand that there were 20 million elms. We do not have many elms in Scotland, but I noticed that I seem to have a lot of elm coppice, which seems to be working very well.
Lord Grantchester
I thank my noble friend for initiating a debate on this order. He has made an expansive analysis of the situation. I also praise the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology on its very interesting exposition yesterday in the other place about the disease. Two points came out of that which I thought would be worth bringing to the attention of the Minister. The first is that it seems as if there is not yet a properly thought through control plan, which I would have thought was one of the first things we need to be on top of. Following on from that, we need a comprehensive communication plan of what the control plan means, including making clear the dos and don’ts to people up and down the land.
I should declare my interest as a farmer in Cheshire, and I want to add to the excellent exposition by my noble friend only a word on his first point, which concerned what I perceive to be the striking difference between the handling of animal disease threat and plant disease threat. I would not wish the point to be lost among all the other excellent points he made. It appears that we have not applied the lessons learnt from animal diseases to plant diseases. I think I am right in saying that when a dangerous animal disease is present or breaks out overseas, the importation of animals from the region in question is immediately banned. For example, we still ban imports from South America because of foot and mouth disease, imports from Canada out of the dormant fly season and so on. Imports have not been allowed to continue up to the point when disease is recognised as being present in the UK.
In regard to plant health issues, it seems that the same regime does not apply. Perhaps the Minister can say whether the import of ash trees has already been banned from countries such as Denmark, where the impact of Chalara fraxinea has been devastating. I ask this because the order before us seems to be the first reaction to the disease, which has only been to ban the importation after its presence in the UK has been detected. Had a regime similar to that which applies to animals been followed from the outset, not only could it have delayed the presence of Chalara fraxinea in the UK, it would have allowed this country to exploit its position as a disease-free area, in which cases exports could well have been made from this country back into Europe. However, there now seems to be no possibility of this sort of trade being undertaken.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. Like others, I should declare an interest as a grower of ash trees. On 15 November, I had the opportunity to see for myself the effects of Chalara fraxinea in Wayland Wood in Norfolk and to meet Forestry Commission staff working on the ground there to identify the disease. I am enormously grateful to those in the plant health authorities, the industry more widely and, indeed, the public, who have all contributed to the response to this harmful disease, including the many volunteers who have given of their time to help.
I was particularly reminded on my visit to Norfolk of the long-term nature of forestry. The foresters were already planning their felling for 2071, hoping that they had selected the right trees that will thrive over the coming 60 years, whatever those years might bring in terms of climate, pestilence and environmental change. In recognition of the scientific advice that it will not be possible to eradicate Chalara fraxinea and on the basis of the experience in Europe that there is no effective treatment, we are now focusing our efforts on minimising the impact of the disease on our economy, our environment and our society. The next step will be the publication of a control plan which will set out our approach to four key objectives. Those are: slowing the rate of spread; developing resistance in the United Kingdom ash population; encouraging citizen, landowner and industry engagement; and building resilience in UK woodland and associated industries. At the same time, the independent expert task force, convened by Defra’s chief scientific adviser, Professor Ian Boyd, will examine further ways to prevent pests and pathogens from entering the country and will publish an interim report. The work of the task force has been to look at the similarities and differences in dealing with animal and plant disease outbreaks and what each can learn from the other. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, referred to this, and I think he made a very important point.
Farming Regulation Task Force
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I have to emphasise that this is not direct income support and therefore it is designed to strengthen the productive capacity of the dairy industry. The scheme will be launched in the autumn, so this is not immediate relief and I do not want to mislead the House by pretending that it is. I understand the difficulties that a lot of dairy farmers are facing with the very poor weather that we have had this summer.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, while Defra has accepted the majority of recommendations that outline the new partnership approach between government and industry, we ignore the far more important matter of relationships in the supply chain between sections of the industry. Today, as we have heard, we see turmoil in the dairy sector. Surely regulation must have the objective of improving the workings of the industry. Regulatory proposals must make a difference to those on the ground. How will the Minister and his department measure and evaluate their success?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I hope that we can measure success by having a prosperous and successful agriculture in this country that is capable of expanding its market. There are huge opportunities for our high-quality agricultural products within the European Union and I hope that we can encourage the industry to look in that direction.
British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his introduction of these two orders. If the Committee will allow me, I shall make a few remarks, reserving the right for my noble friend Lord Knight to respond from the Front Bench. I apologise and ask the Committee to forgive me if I have an eye on the clock and do not stay quite long enough to hear the Minister’s full response to the debate. I have pressing duties elsewhere.
From the perspective of south Cheshire, where I live and which along with neighbouring counties has extensive canals across it, the abolition of the IWAC is greeted mostly with resignation, neither receiving widespread support nor opposition. This would be in keeping with the low number of responses received to the consultation. In the past, I have been approached on several waterways issues, although on this one the Minister can be relaxed by and large. However, this lack of enthusiasm seems to be because there is a feeling among IWAC members that this order is a fait accompli, as evidenced when Defra announced the abolition of IWAC ahead of announcing the findings of the consultation about IWAC. I know that the Minister in the other place, Richard Benyon, had to issue apologies to Graham Evans MP for John Edmonds, the chairman of IWAC. Having said that, the arrangements, protections, appeals processes and so on will very much remain as before, so the change is viewed as largely cosmetic.
I know that all members of IWAC are very passionate about waterways and will always have their best interests at heart. I urge the Minister and his department to make full use of the knowledge and expertise of IWAC members, especially on such issues as volunteering, environmental protection, tourism and restoration, all of which will need to be addressed by the new Canal and River Trust. I know that members of IWAC, which is an independent, advisory and unpaid body, will give their time and expertise freely and would have gladly continued under the umbrella of IWAC. No doubt they will continue to do so. I am sure that the Minister would wish to confirm that his department recognises that that will continue to be the case, as these members would provide an excellent conduit to the CRT on behalf of all waterways users on all matters concerning the waterways.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clarity in setting out a number of issues around this order. Given that there are quite a few speakers, I shall focus on one issue and invite the Minister to say a few more words at the end.
The issue that I wish to raise is how we will ensure that the new charity—the Canal and River Trust—reflects the full duties and responsibilities entrusted to the British Waterways by Parliament. I refer specifically to the duty towards those who live on waterways without a fixed mooring. I have checked the Charity Commission website and can find no mention for the new charity of duties to those whose homes are on the bodies of water that the charity will control. As such, the new charity’s purposes and responsibilities do not reflect some duties that currently exist in legislation and which British Waterways undertakes. This is not a newly contentious matter as, at the beginning of the 1990s, British Waterways sought to remove the rights of boat dwellers who did not have a permanent mooring. Parliament took a different view and the result was Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995, which enables boats to be licensed without having a permanent mooring as long as they do not spend more than 14 days in one place. The committee is concerned that people who have had the right to live on the waterways but without a fixed mooring might lose those rights.
As my noble friend mentioned, the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee produced an excellent report on this recently. The evidence from Mr Evans of British Waterways to the committee says that the Canal and River Trust,
“will be a much more engaged organisation that will reflect the will of the people”.
However, reflecting the will of the people is not at all the same thing as recognising historic duties and responsibilities.
Having met representatives of the proposed new charity—as a former chief executive of a small conservation charity, I wish it well and know just how difficult it is to meet all the competing needs of stakeholders—I have no doubt that it intends through its council, its waterway partnerships and its specialist advisory groups to construct a far more open constitution than ever before on the waterways. However, engagement with some stakeholders is not always easy. Itinerant boat dwellers, for example, do not have a representative body, but their needs need to be considered alongside those of all other waterway stakeholders. To that end, it is illuminating that in the Government’s own explanatory document for the transfer, paragraph 7.16 highlights the “greater involvement” of,
“communities which live alongside waterways”,
and “waterways’ users” in how the waterways are to be managed in future, but excludes any mention of communities that actually live on the water.
I understand that any future by-laws from the charity will be subject to ministerial confirmation and I am grateful for the clarity from the Minister on that point. However, I would like it to be explicit on the record that the department will write to the CRT to ensure that the new charity must take all specific needs of stakeholders into account in developing future by-laws.
Further, it should be explicit that the grant agreement, which my noble friend also mentioned and which I think is for £800 million, accompanying the grant will set out the terms of the final agreement, and that it will make clear that the safeguard to consider the specific needs of all stakeholders, including itinerant boat dwellers, will be part of a condition for the grant being given.
To be clear, the House has a long history of ensuring that the rights of all stakeholders are upheld on the waterways. In the absence of any duty towards those people who live on the waterways in the new charity’s charitable remit, the Government must by other means ensure that this duty is safeguarded in the future. I welcome what the Minister has said, but I would like to be absolutely clear on the specifics of how the Government will assure that.
Infrastructure Planning (Waste Water Transfer and Storage) Order 2012
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
My Lords,
“Infrastructure investment is vital to the UK economy and jobs”.
That is the first sentence in the background paper to the order today. It is wonderful to hear the Minister speak to it and, as we have been reminding him and his Government constantly, place it at the top of the action for growth agenda. This order is coming forward just before the Recess. The Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill was scheduled for the day before the Easter Recess. From this side, we welcome them at whatever time. We will very much take these orders as a quasi-Committee stage—as a Committee stage was denied to the water industry Bill as a money Bill—to follow up the progress of activity.
This order fulfils the recommendation in the EFRA committee report on the draft waste water national policy statement that the Government should bring forward proposals to amend the Planning Act 2008 to bring large-scale sewerage infrastructure, such as the Thames tunnel, within the planning regime for nationally significant infrastructure projects. As the Minister said in his introduction, this order is concerned with the construction and alteration of infrastructure for waste water. Currently, around 39 million cubic metres of waste water enters the Thames every year from London’s combined sewage overflows. When storm water capacity is exceeded, they discharge. On average, that happens once a week. The urgency of the work as a health hazard and to improve the environment is increased by the infraction proceedings being pursued against the UK by the European Commission for breaches of the directive.
Is there any update the Minister could give since the passing of the Bill in March? Is he now more confident that the scheme will be fit for purpose for the long haul? Is there an outcome he can share from the consultation undertaken by Thames Water Limited in the early months of this year, a measure spoken to by my noble friend Lord Berkeley, who also asked questions about the costs and outcomes of the scheme? It is very encouraging that the amendment to Section 35 of the Planning Act 2008 came into force in April instead of in December this year. The memorandum points out in its policy options analysis that this will save costs: each month’s reduction in time will save in the region of £5 million.
I thank the Minister for his letter following the passage of the Bill in March. I shall follow it up with a few questions for information on the detail of the order today. The memorandum lists the groups contacted in the consultation process undertaken last year on the capacity threshold of 35,000 cubic metres and indicates 62% agreement with the threshold and 73% agreement with the proposed supplemental provisions. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, mentioned the local groups established in response to the Thames tunnel proposals. Will the Minister give an indication of the percentage agreement of community groups within the overall figures? Can we be assured that the worried section of the population, apart from all the relevant authorities and planning associations, is on the whole happy with the proposal? I know the Minister mentioned this in his opening remarks.
On the capacity threshold, will the Minister indicate what increase in capacity over today is indicated by 35,000 cubic metres? What level of occurrence will overwhelm this capacity? Has there been any assessment of what increases in households the system will adequately cover or for how long, assuming all other activity remains the same?
From our debate on the Bill in March, the Minister will know that we look to encourage many more water efficiency proposals to come forward: to separate out as far as possible water runoff from the sewerage system; to reduce the replacement of gardens and green space with paved areas; to replace hard non-permeable surfaces with porous materials; and, last but not least, to encourage measures to reduce household consumption of water. Can the Minister update the Committee today on any of those aspects since the Bill’s passage?
The memorandum also outlines the fact that 350,000 cubic metres capacity was informed by experience of large projects. Could the Minister explain what is meant in the memorandum when it says that in the next 10 years the proposed Thames tunnel has an estimated capacity of 1,580,000 metres? The memorandum also mentions the reviews of the scheme into the future. May I ask that the Minister builds into that regime a review to be implemented as any overspill occurs? That will underline that the hygiene problems of London are to be consigned to the past.
Finally, in a debate on the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill, we called for apprenticeships to be set up and included in the project. We welcome the remarks made by the Minister on future projects in his opening statement. With all that said, we agree to take note of the orders today.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, it has been an interesting if fairly brief debate and exchange of views that I hope will inform your Lordships for future occasions. I tend to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that perhaps it might be useful to have a meeting of Peers and those at Defra some time in the autumn where we can bring together all those matters. A debate such as this has helped considerably to bring to the fore some of the issues that are being considered by government. After all, there is a contingent liability to government in the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill in these matters, and those are not undertaken lightly or without the Government having a proper care of what is involved.
As I said in my opening speech, it is appropriate that the issue of this order amending Section 14 of the Planning Act 2008 should be separate from the specific matter of the Thames tunnel. However, I do understand that the Thames tunnel is the only one that fits the Bill at the moment. So we have two elements to the debate today—one about the statutory instrument before us, which I have commended to the Committee, and the other about the broader issues. I hope that I can indulge the Grand Committee by talking about Thames tunnel matters, because it is clearly a public platform.
I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Parminter for her general support for this project. As I say, it is not something that the Government have entered into lightly. Indeed, it is of course Thames Water that is entering into the project; the Government are providing a framework against which they can make their application. I assure her that Thames Water expects to commence its publicity notice in mid-July, which will publicise the impending planning application in early 2013. There has been a lot of public liaison by Thames Water itself, but of course that will mean that the consultation on the planning process opens up formally at that time.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, whose professional and parliamentary expertise on matters of tunnels I respect, mentions the Binnie report. Our view is that the environmental criteria set in 2007 remain robust; they are not gold-plated in any way, and we cannot afford to downgrade them. Alternatives such as a western tunnel or a piecemeal approach—and I do not mean that in a derogative sense—which the noble Lord recommended, showed that there can be considerable problems. None of the alternatives identified during the extensive studies carried out over the past decade has been able to deal swiftly and adequately with the true environmental and health objectives of the Thames Tideway, while at the same time complying with statutory obligations. For example, separate rainwater from foul water sewerage systems would be far more costly, possibly £12 billion. It would be extremely disruptive and would take far too long to complete.
The shorter west London tunnel coupled with green infrastructure measures would still not fully reduce the volume and frequency of discharges either sufficiently or quickly, so we would not, in fact, be able to meet the environmental and health objectives.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
It would be useful. I am satisfied that Defra has thought this matter through. Clearly, at the current stage of the economic cycle, we are not looking to spend money that it is beyond the capacity of this Government to endorse. I will come on to the European Court in relation to that. The interim measures, as I said, will not meet the waste water directive. That is one of the difficulties. We have to consider the urban waste water directive. The proposal to construct a tunnel should be sufficient to avoid fines completely if it is delivered to the planned timetable.
Within that process, it is important for the noble Lord to understand that although we expect a judgment concerning London in the next few months, if we lose and the European Commission wishes to pursue fines because it does not think that we are addressing the issue properly, it needs to return to the Court for further judgment. The Court has wide discretion about the levels of fines depending on several factors including the seriousness and the duration of the breach. In this case, we would expect the level of fines against the UK to be significant and set at a level to act as an incentive to remedy that breach as quickly as possible. But fines would be levied until the breach is rectified. Currently, the proposed Thames tunnel offers the solution most likely to rectify the problem within the shortest time.
We cannot prejudge this issue, but clearly we are seeking to address it. It has arisen over a century or more of the growth of London and the growth in its sewage. Much of our sewerage infrastructure was built by Bazalgette 150 years ago and is clearly no longer capable of coping.
I think that I have covered those questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and I now wonder if I have some points to help the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. I am grateful for his contribution, which was supportive of the process that the statutory instrument is trying to bring about. Indeed, he is grateful for the Government tabling this debate because it is something that the Opposition have supported in the past.
There is no question of us seeking to curtail debate. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that. The money Bill was a money Bill and we were not able to debate that further. I hope that he is happy with the suggestion I made to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. There were a number of detailed questions that he asked me and I hope that he will forgive me if I write to him on those matters. I can make sure that other noble Lords who spoke in the debate get a copy of that letter.
Lord Grantchester
I am grateful to the Minister for offering a meeting in the autumn so that we can get to grips with some of these more pertinent matters.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I thank the noble Lord very much for that suggestion. I conclude my remarks by saying that the order will help to prevent some of the indecision and delay that has gone on around many of these projects and the additional costs incurred by them. I hope that it will prove to be of utility for this Government and future governments.