European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Goldsmith Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 Lords Chamber

Motion C1 not moved.

[Lord Goldsmith (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps the most important words the Minister just said were to the effect that rights and protections will not be diluted or damaged as we leave the European Union. I noted those words, and we will all study Hansard carefully to get the extent of the assurances he has given. That was what lay at the heart of this debate: whether the consequence of leaving the EU would be a diminution of, or damage to, rights and protections that have grown up over the years and which for many people are of enormous importance. The areas identified in my noble friend Lady Hayter’s amendment indicate the areas of importance, such as workers’ rights and equality, as well as others to which the Minister referred.

I was glad to hear from the way the Minister described his amendment that there is no disagreement between us over the importance of protecting those rights; the disagreement is on the mechanism for doing so. To some extent, we are in uncharted territory. So long as these were rights derived from the European Union and so long as we remain in the European Union, they cannot be changed by a decision of a Minister or the Government alone.

The Minister has given assurances about the Government’s intentions and assurances that the mechanisms being put forward, which we welcome, will give effect to the need to maintain those protections. People will be watching—the Minister knows that—and they will be observing carefully how that promise is assured and safeguarded. Fundamentally, that is what these amendments from our Benches were designed to achieve: to make sure that these rights were neither diluted nor damaged. On that basis, we look forward to seeing how these assurances work in practice.

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[Lord Lisvane (CB)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for setting out the Government’s case with such precision and care. I am very grateful, too, to the number of noble Lords who voted in substantial majorities for the three amendments covered by the three Motions in this group.

The Minister and his colleagues have been rather critical of what I might call the family of amendments that seek to bolt on to the Bill issues of policy. They have said, “No, this Bill has a central theme”. Of course, these three amendments address that central theme. They are about the balance of power between Parliament and the Executive. I am quietly disappointed that, despite the degree to which the Government have moved in terms of explanatory statements and other matters, the Commons did not take this view. I did not see any new material or arguments deployed in the Commons. In particular, I did not see an acknowledgement that a definition of what might fall within the category of necessity—that is, “necessary”— might prevent Ministers being overly constrained by the use of that term. However, I think that, if one were to craft an interpretative provision of that sort, it would solicit a very similar answer from the House of Commons.

So I feel that the argument has been made, and perhaps that is where it should rest for the time being—but with a weather eye, which I know will be exercised by your Lordships, on how “appropriate” is interpreted by Ministers in the use of these provisions.

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, in following what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, I will make one observation. In this House, noble Lords have supported the noble Lord’s amendment, and rightly so, because the focus has been on whether there is an appropriate balance of power between the Executive and Parliament. In voting in the way that they did, noble Lords expressed their view, which has been noted quite plainly by the other place, that it is for Parliament to make such important decisions.

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, said, having got to the stage where the House of Commons has stated four times that it wants to stick with “appropriate”, which it thinks is appropriate, and does not think it necessary to go any further, we are not recommending that noble Lords should disagree the amendment. But the important point has been made, and two comments follow from that. First, we hope that Ministers will carefully realise the significance of the debate that has taken place; we imagine that they will. Secondly, we hope that people outside this House will realise that, in pushing and speaking to these amendments, this House has been doing its job of making sure that the Executive is held to account.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, there are two stages in the mass of subordinate legislation that we will have: what is required to be in place before March 2019 and what can be dealt with afterwards. Many of us in this House are now conscious that time is extremely short and the mass of legislation that needs to be got through before March 2019 is extremely large. If possible, we would like to hear from the Minister that, over the next six to nine months, Ministers will resist the temptation to cut corners on parliamentary approval of subordinate legislation and in the general adjustment of required legislation because there is such a shortage of time, and that he will make sure that Parliament and this House are allowed thorough scrutiny of all the measures that need to be put in place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I think the humanitarian aspect of Brexit, especially in so far as it affects children, is something, as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, mentioned, that the general public feel very strongly about. I am delighted to be able to congratulate the Government and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, on reflecting that very important view.

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, I add our thanks to the Minister for the tribute that he paid to my noble friend Lord Dubs. We entirely endorse that.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I think we are in full agreement in paying tribute not only to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for his diligence, his commitment and his compassion, but to all those across all parties who have recognised that, irrespective of Brexit, we must recognise our obligations and duties across Europe to the reunification of asylum-seeking children. It is also important to stress that across Europe, and indeed across the world, others are wrestling with this challenge and some are not doing very well. I believe we have established the right outcome here.