Pensions Bill

Lord German Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord German]

33A: Clause 20, page 10, line 5, at end insert “including those territories where reciprocal agreements have been reached with Great Britain”

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, the amendment is an attempt to find an alternative approach to the solution of the anomaly of what is known in common parlance as the frozen pensions issue. At Second Reading I asked my noble friend if I could see the correspondence between other Governments where there were UK pensioners receiving only the frozen pension, in order to try to identify whether the idea of moving forward on the basis of reciprocal arrangements was actually going to be productive and would produce some way forward. It is clearly an anomaly; there are currently approximately 600,000 UK pensioners living outside the UK who get their pensions uprated in the same way as if they were living in the UK. At the same time, we do not uprate the pensions of about 550,000 UK pensioners, most of whom live in Commonwealth countries. All, of course, have made the appropriate financial contribution for their pension and many of them have relocated to be near family members. Many of them are former members of the British Armed Forces.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, pointed out, the policy on the uprating of state pensions for pensioners abroad is a long-standing one. It has been regularly debated over the years. Clause 20 provides an enabling power for regulations to restrict the availability of annual uprates, as now, in the new state pension where the recipient is living overseas. The Government’s intention is that there will be no difference in treatment between the new and old state pensions as to overseas uprating, either generally or with regard to the UK’s various bilateral agreements. I can reassure noble Lords that all our existing legal obligations with regard to uprating of pensions under bilateral agreements—along with the European co-ordination regulations—will continue to be honoured. To treat the new single-tier pension differently from the current pension would clearly go against the spirit of these agreements. However, I should make it clear that there are no current plans to enter into any new social security bilateral agreements.

There are a number of factors to be considered behind that decision. These are the number of people moving between countries, the benefits available under the other country’s scheme, the compatibility of systems and how far and to what extent reciprocity can be achieved. Future costs are also considered in both the implementation and future operation of any agreement. A bilateral agreement with Australia existed in 2001 when Australia ended it because of a dispute around the current UK policy on uprating UK state pensions paid overseas. There are no plans to enter into a new bilateral agreement with Australia, as any agreement would not achieve reciprocity between it and the United Kingdom.

I shall pick up the Canadian point. Bilateral agreements cover social security matters only, rather than matters beyond this scope which might be described as mutually beneficial. DWP officials are not aware of a discussion or correspondence on this wider scope of mutually beneficial arrangements. I cannot confirm the figures provided by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on whether four times more go to Australia than come back, but she is normally well informed.

I need to make information available on the numbers. We are in the process of updating and quality assuring our estimate of the cost of unfreezing pensions for 2014-15. The department has moved from modelling change to the case load at a population level to a more complex methodology, which takes account of individual characteristics and provides a more accurate estimate when applied to historic data. As a consequence, we now estimate that the cost of extending the uprating of pensions currently paid overseas is slightly reduced but it will still represent a substantial cost to UK taxpayers of more than £0.5 billion per annum. My noble friend is right in saying that this is somewhat below the previous estimate, based on general populations, of £700 million. The department has recently released a statistical publication that clarifies this matter, to which I can refer noble Lords if they need more information.

On the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on whether people have full information, the department issues the following leaflets which include information on the impact of living outside the UK and the annual uprating increase for UK state pensions: leaflet BR 23, leaflet DWP040 and leaflet DWP026. The 040 leaflet is sent out with the state pension statement, for instance. Information is available on the government website and Social Security Abroad, leaflet NI138, issued by HMRC, also includes similar advice.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, on reviewing overseas residents’ provision assumes that we would be able to identify and assess the behavioural link between uprating policy and migration patterns. The question about a review is whether it would raise expectations. The noble Lord posed the question about whether we would uprate if we had the money. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, was spot on when she raised the issue about making very difficult decisions on payments. Finding £500 million is not an easy business. Clearly, there will always be different priorities for £500 million per annum, as indeed the previous Government decided at a time when there appeared to be more money floating around than there appears to be today. I will not step on anyone’s grave in the collegiate atmosphere of this Committee.

The final question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, was on the numbers of pension-age people moving abroad. That comes from the document from the ONS called Emigration from the UK, November 2012, which states:

“Only two per cent (or 6,000) of those emigrating were over the state pension age of 60 for women and 65 years for men”.

The report also interestingly indicates that 10% were aged between 45 and 59/64 years.

We are aware of research that suggests that a theoretical and economic case can be made to support the uprating of state pensions for all recipients abroad. However, it is notable that this analysis has not been able to provide evidence of a proven behavioural link between uprating and pensioner migration. In fact, we think it unlikely that any review would demonstrate that. In any case, the decision to emigrate abroad remains a personal choice for individuals. In the absence of that kind of evidence, we know that the cost of extending the uprating of pensions currently paid overseas remains significant at more than £0.5 billion per annum. The Government, like their predecessors over the past 60 years, believe that they must put the interests of pensioners living in the UK over the interests of those living overseas by restricting the availability of uprates to those living here or in a country where we have a legal or treaty obligation to provide them. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord German]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It is an interesting one because in the words, I think, of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, it is one that will not go away and will continue to raise its head. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for reminding noble Lords that at Second Reading I did preface my remarks quite clearly by saying that I was not seeking to pay huge amounts of money to deal with this matter in the manner that many people have demanded or asked. It is a question of trying to find an alternative approach, which is what I was seeking to do with this amendment and in my earlier statements at Second Reading.

As many noble Lords have mentioned, people are putting pressure on noble Lords and Members of the other House to come up with some solutions. The challenge is to think of a way in which an approach might be developed, and I put one before noble Lords in this amendment. I hope it was quite clear that the amendment was not seeking any approach beyond a quid pro quo with another Government so that the message would be clear to any other Government seeking to approach the United Kingdom on this issue. Quite a number have approached the United Kingdom over the years, including some quite surprising places such as Mongolia. If we are going to go down this route, we need to ensure that there is a clear message that there will be no additional costs to United Kingdom plc.

I note what my noble friend said about reciprocity only being looked at from a social security angle. However, that raises another point, on which I echo some thoughts back to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. If income comes to UK plc, providing the UK Government can redistribute it accordingly, there may well be opportunities in any agreement beyond just simple social security. I think that has been consistently looked at as the approach for all these reciprocal arrangements, right back to the very beginning.

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[Lord German]

Perhaps I could put inverted commas around the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and refer them, and the precise nature of this debate, to the Minister in Canada. I do not know what was in their mind. My noble friend the Minister here cannot know either, because of course they closed the door to any discussion with the officials from the Canadian Government. However, we need a discussion about this issue. It may well be that it is not with DWP Ministers; it may need to be at some other level.

I do not know the answer to the noble Baroness’s question. All I know is that the Canadian Government believe that they have a mutually beneficial offer to make. That seems to me to be worthy of further discussion; no more than that. I make it clear that I am very much in favour of managing expectations here. The amendment does not call for expenditure at the levels which we have seen before us, and I do not wish to see a reduction in social security expenditure for people currently living in this country as a result. However, when an offer of that sort is made, it is worthy of examination. If there were to be the sorts of things that would make it mutually beneficial, and the Canadian Government believe it to be mutually beneficial to adopt a procedure for Canadian UK pensioners, then it is worth at least finding out what is on the table. If it were to be a successful offer, that of course quite clearly sends the message to other Governments that they can come up with a deal that actually meets the expectations of this Government and the British people.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again; he is being very tolerant, for which I am grateful. Again, I am relying on my memory, which is probably faulty, but something in the order of 85% of overseas pensioners outside the EU are in the four major Anglo-Saxon countries. However, the countries in which most of us would recognise that there are anomalies are not so much the big four Anglo-Saxon countries, which have decent social security systems for poverty relief as a safety net and so on. This is about the mixed history of some Caribbean islands, which came in under the net, before 1979, for protection of overseas pensioners, while others did not. Once we started inflating pensions by the cost of living—I am not sure that this was accidental—bilateral relations disappeared at that point because they started to reflect the British cost of living. Those countries are so poor that they are looking for a form of aid in the form of pensions. How would the noble Lord justify coming to a mutually advantageous deal with a relatively wealthy country like Canada while, because an appropriately mutually advantageous offer could not be made with Caribbean islands, that opportunity would be refused to some of the poorer countries?

[Lord German]

We have gone a very long way from what might be the first step in this direction. We have not yet been able to answer that first question: what do any Government have ready to offer?

Incidentally, the Government’s figures are quite clear. They say that 85% of all those with frozen pensions live in Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Those are huge numbers. One of the interesting things when you look at these issues, as noble Lords will know, is that other countries produce information, which comes to you in emails. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, asked earlier about Australian pensions. I understand that they are means-tested, but only by 50% of total income over the threshold, so if the UK pension was increased by £20 then the Australian pension would be reduced by the equivalent of £10. As we know, it is not always as clear as we suggest.

My intention in tabling the amendment was simply to be able to examine the issue in a different way, and only then to consider it further. However, it seems to me that we need an answer. I have not yet heard the answer, although of course I could not expect to hear an answer from my noble friend since the discussion with officials was not allowed to take place. However, I encourage that discussion to take place, even if it is over a cup of tea with another group of officials at some stage. In a spirit of hope that this will happen, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 33A withdrawn.