Sustainable Fisheries for Future Generations

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Negotiations require two parties to come together successfully. However, I stress again that one of the principles that we seek is fairness. When one understands the proportion of fish being taken by UK vessels and non-UK vessels and what UK vessels are taking from EU 27 waters, something is not right. There is no fairness, and that is what we need to address. I would be very surprised if EU fishing interests did not understand that this needs to be part of the negotiation. However, clearly it needs to be done in a spirit of collaboration, and part of that concerns sustainability. Whoever fishes them, if there are not enough fish, we—whether the EU 27 or the UK—will not have a dynamic fishing industry. Therefore, it is absolutely imperative that that is at the root of everything.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned enforcement and referred to the five new River-class vessels, one of which is going to the Falkland Islands. It is quite clear that we have insufficient ships to patrol an EEZ if we have to enforce new rules. Also, the JMOCC does not have proper centralised co-ordination. I have talked about that with the Minister before and that has to be in place before the new rules come in. Is it possible to consider using the two River- class vessels that have been put on one side and have not been disposed of, and to man those with reservists so that we can enhance the number of ships without too great a cost? We will need more ships if we are to enforce these new rules.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, many noble Lords will know that the noble Lord and I went to see the MMO in Newcastle and had a very interesting day looking at some of the technology for detecting whether a vessel is aping some other activity but is really fishing. I agree that the Royal Navy plays an important part in enforcement, and it will continue to do so. I am afraid that it is not within my gift to comment on longer-term deployment and the number of vessels, but we are absolutely clear that other third countries are well able to enforce their fisheries policy, and we need to work on a system that works for us.

Northern Forest

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As I explained in my earlier reply, this will be a public and private enterprise. There will be a number of ways in which this can be done, including the woodland carbon sequestration fund. There are a number of public tree-planting funds, as well as public and charitable sources.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Admiral Collingwood was very worried about the northern forest and the loss of oak trees because so many had been used to build ships, and he used to walk around with acorns in his pockets. He, like Nelson, was also worried about the lack of frigates because our Navy had only 138 at the time. Does the Minister think that Admiral Collingwood would feel very pleased about the northern forest proposals, but not very happy about the fact that our nation now has 13 frigates?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we have come some way from frigates being built from wood but, wherever we are, we want to plant more trees. The important point about the northern forest is that it is overwhelmingly in an urban area. We are going through all the cities of the north, which means that the environment in those great cities will be enhanced. The northern forest is in parallel with the northern powerhouse initiative, and is great news for all the communities along it.

Brexit: EEZ and Territorial Seas

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what contingency planning they have undertaken to ensure patrolling and enforcement of the United Kingdom’s exclusive economic zone and territorial seas after Brexit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recently established the Joint Maritime Operations Coordination Centre—JMOCC—to co-ordinate sea-based patrol activity across marine agencies to reinforce the security of our waters after Brexit. In respect of fisheries, Defra has assessed the scale and volume of sea-based patrol capability required for Brexit. Defra and the Marine Management Organisation will work through the JMOCC to utilise available resources in partnership with the Ministry of Defence and other agencies.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful Answer and for the discussions we have had about the co-ordination of this. We have a dreadful hotchpotch of vessels and departments involved, and we are responsible for a vast sea area and a hugely long coastline. To somehow get the maximum effect out of the very small number of ships we have, and to overcome the fact that we do not have a proper air surveillance capability and are not using drones properly, it is absolutely necessary to have a study into how we can focus this and use the JMOCC properly—bearing in mind there is also an operations centre in the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the MMO—so we can co-ordinate this and do it properly. At the moment, we will not be able to do it. Is the Minister willing to look at setting up some group to co-ordinate that study so that we have a snowball’s chance in hell of looking after the waters for which we are responsible?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, yes, with 11,000 miles of coastline and an EEZ of 165 square miles, it is a task. That is precisely why, with the Security Minister having overall responsibility for the JMOCC, the whole purpose is to improve the co-ordination of cross-agency patrol capabilities, increase information-sharing across government and enhance aerial surveillance operations. The whole purpose is to ensure co-ordination; the fact that the JMOCC will be co-located with the National Maritime Information Centre will offer us a strong chance to bring all these things together.

Inshore Fisheries

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK has a robust enforcement system, delivered by the Marine Management Organisation, or MMO, and the Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities, or IFCAs, in England. The MMO covers the UK’s exclusive economic zone from six nautical miles to 200 nautical miles or the median line, while the IFCAs cover the area from zero to six nautical miles. As we leave the EU, we will need to review and reflect on the level of fisheries enforcement required.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer, but I have to say that this simple sailor is absolutely stunned by it, as it shows amazing complacency. The bottom line is we have very few vessels involved in this and they are not properly co-ordinated centrally. We have already seen a number of the countries involved saying, “To hell with what you say, we’re coming there anyway”. We will be made a laughing stock if we apply some rules and cannot enforce them. Will we now establish a centralised command system to control the various assets we have—far too few of them to be able to focus on things such as someone fishing illegally in the six-to-12 mile zone? Will we also ensure that we build some more ships and boats so that we can actually enforce this?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the best thing may be if the noble Lord would be prepared to come with me to Newcastle to see the vessel-monitoring system, which I have learned a great deal about since his Question was on the Order Paper. It is a digital service which enables us to target those areas, so that we know every vessel that is at sea within our waters. I have some very interesting statistics on enforcement by the Royal Navy and others. In addition to that, not only are there three offshore patrol vessels but a further five new River class offshore patrol vessels are currently being built. They will be used for, among other things, fisheries protection. However, as I said earlier, we will have to review what we need to ensure that.