Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Kinnoull

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, I am struggling, because I fear we are mixing our drinks a little. On the one hand, we have had some debate—particularly from the noble Lords, Lord McNicol and Lord Lansley—on the mechanics of a TRA. That is, what sort of people do we want, and how will they be governed? We clearly want competent people, which is to some extent going to be a tough ask—not because people are not clever enough, but because they have not practised this particular activity. On the other hand, the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Brown, are talking about the politics and economics of trade remedy. In a sense, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, alluded to the nexus between that decision—the politics of trade—and the role of the TRA. This debate is not unpicking those two activities.

We talk about having a wholly independent TRA, but as a country there seems to be some political convergence around the idea that we have an industrial strategy. Are the Government going to run one independently of the other? I am not sure that Germany does that. Even though Germany is beholden to Brussels, I am pretty sure that its trade policy—the way in which it works through Brussels—is very much beholden to its industrial strategy. Further homework is required for all of us.

I sympathise with the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, on the ceramics industry. That industry benefited in this country from the political clout of Spain and other countries which have similar problems. If we leave the European Union, that support and clout will be gone. That will be true for many industries in this country, not just ceramics—agriculture is a huge loser in terms of lobbying in a post-Brexit world.

The question to ask ourselves is how much clout this TRA will have, when you have got the United States, the European Union and China. Let us say that this is a steel-dumping question. Does it matter what the TRA will do in the face of those challenges? We are arguing all sorts of important things, but by coming out of the European Union, we are reducing any kind of clout we will have in future trade decisions.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and associate myself with all her remarks. I also associate myself with the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh—I agreed very much with what she had to say.

Amendments 101A and 103B are probing in nature, and I will address a few thoughts to this TRA membership question. In Schedule 4, the TRA is proudly declared to be independent. That is important in trade, because, as one goes through Article 6 of GATT, and the 1994 associated agreement on that article, one sees that the whole idea behind trade remedy processes is that they are fair and are not being used as political weapons by the countries wielding them. That independence is therefore philosophically important to preserve. And yet, in Schedule 4 we find that the Secretary of State will appoint all the non-executives. In addition, the non-executives will always be in the majority, and the Secretary of State can fire all of them. To add icing to the cake, the Secretary of State has the power to issue guidance, and the TRA must “have regard” to it. That does not look to me like a recipe for independence. It would mean that the TRA would begin life with a bad image, and it would be difficult for it to appear a useful, independent tool internationally.

I worry that, if another body had a similar structure which might have political interference—although I do not think we would actually operate it badly—we could be on the wrong end of something. We would not be able to criticise, because it would have the same structure. I join other noble Lords in very much looking forward to what the Minister has to say about the independence of the TRA, and about the points that I and others have made.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 101A and, without rehearsing the points, I entirely endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, said in speaking to the amendment. The Minister was kind enough to have a meeting with the team and myself, but I have this awful feeling that she will not support this amendment. I would like to give her a bit of bottle this evening and say why she must adopt the amendments, particularly Amendment 101A. A similar amendment was not carried in the House of Commons but by a very narrow margin and it goes to this point that a number of noble Lords have said this evening—the process must be, and be seen to be, fair in appointing and sustaining members of the TRA, and they must operate independently and impartially. I make this plea to the Minister: the Government must be seen to rein in some of the powers of the Secretary of State, which will be pretty broad if we let the Bill go to its final stages without making these points.

I entirely support what my noble friend Lord Lansley said about why an independent Trade Remedies Authority is required, and I should have declared an interest: I spent a very enjoyable six months in 1978 when I was very young, very keen, and very green, with the EU Commission—DG IV, now known as DG Comp. We did important things, such as read the Financial Times, which was amazing because a number of companies were announcing they were merging without having told the European Commission or the UK home authority, so it is absolutely vital that we have an independent authority such as the Trade Remedies Authority.

To respond to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, we need to give the businesses in this country the knowledge that there will be a remedy which replicates the remedies that are currently available. I entirely support his point that it will not be EU-wide, but we do need some anti-dumping and retaliatory measures at our disposal in this country.