Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord Fox Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, the amendment makes no reference to the devolved Administrations, and they have a considerable burden themselves to bear. I hope the Minister has been very careful to have regard to the interests of the devolved Administrations and will consider their position when he decides what to make of this amendment.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, first I would like to associate myself with those last two comments and those of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. This amendment should not in any way be conflated with the amendments that we have passed and, I hope, we will pass later today. Rising to speak to this amendment rather feels like gate-crashing someone else’s private argument. I beg your pardon, but I am going to continue.

In normal circumstances, if there was anyone I would send out to reduce bureaucracy, it would be the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. Sadly, she seems to have broken from her norm with this amendment—perhaps she has been egged on or even corrupted by the co-signatories of this amendment. However, it does seem like it is one fight too many for the Government, and I understand that to some extent the Minister will be conceding on this. No doubt in the Government’s estimation this is perhaps a bone that can be thrown to one part of their own party without actually causing too many problems for the rest of the Bill—so good luck to the Minister on that one.

To what end will we have this list? I am a little curious as to what we will be listing. The noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, raised this to some extent. I think it would be helpful for your Lordships if the Minister could confirm at what point in the process of this Bill retained EU law that is not revoked by the schedule becomes assimilated law. In other words, when will this happen? When in the process of this Bill do Clauses 4, 5 and 6 cause these laws to slough off the links they have with the ECJ and all those interpretations based on EU values, which noble Lords opposite object to? At what point are these laws rendered just as susceptible to British common law as any other law on the statute? It would be helpful to know the dates when those things will happen because, once that has happened, it seems there will no longer be any retained EU law: it will be assimilated law formerly known as retained EU law.

An intriguing vision visited me when I was pondering this. In the popular motion picture “Blade Runner”, the hero, Harrison Ford, is tasked with rooting out and eliminating replicants. As I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, will remember from when she queued to enter the cinema, the replicants are essentially synthetic humans, indistinguishable from and which function as real humans—hence, they are rather hard to find. In a sense, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is seeking to brand these laws in order that they do not become indistinguishable replicants once they enter the canon of British law. Of course, that is her point; she has to maintain a difference between these laws in order to continue to have a conflict. This is, of course, a conflict between and among her parliamentary colleagues rather than the rest of us.

If, instead of focusing on where these laws came from, they focused on what they do, the whole process would be more worth while. Some of this assimilated law will need revoking or reforming, but similarly so do swathes of laws that were directly made by this Parliament. The invaluable time spent on the process in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes—her annual census of the replicants perhaps—would be better spent actually doing the sort of things we need to do to make regulations smarter, as was noted by noble Lords just now.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, mentioned the Financial Services and Markets Bill. She may be dissatisfied with what is going on there, but that seems to be a model of how this process should go. If you take a sector, the job of Parliament is to assess all of the relevant laws pertinent to that particular sector. Some of them will need retaining; some of them will need revoking; some will need reforming, and there will be a need for new laws. At the end of it, Parliament will have gone through the whole process—irrespective of where those laws came from. It is not about where they came from; it is about what they do. This is unnecessary and it is essentially an irrelevant piece of legislation designed to create an argument within the party opposite.

It is the sort of clause that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, would normally come down on like a ton of bricks. It is a list that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and her colleagues on this amendment can use to fuel a fight with other members of the Conservative Party and nothing more—so good luck with that.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I was surprised when I saw this amendment. I have now spent 13 years in opposition in this and the other place, tabling such amendments at just about every opportunity. When you know that the Government are not going to do what you want them to do, one of the things left to you is to ask the Government to report annually or six-monthly to both Houses on whatever the issue might be. I have done this on everything from women’s justice to food standards to access to medicines. It is an in your back pocket kind of amendment—the sort that Ministers usually bat away quite easily. They talk about the cost and how much Civil Service time would be taken up in preparation. They do not want to use up valuable parliamentary time to debate these things, nor to distract Ministers with these sorts of fripperies.

On this occasion, it seems that the Government have decided that they can afford the time, money and resources to compile this list—to keep the argument alive for some people within the Conservative Party. What has happened to the noble Lords, Lord Frost and Lord Jackson? The tigers of Brexit are being bought off by an annual report to both Houses of Parliament. This is the sort of thing that the Opposition would have settled for at any point. There they are, taking this at what is meant to be the climax of their Brexit mission. I am quite disappointed that this is all the noble Lords have sought to achieve at the end of all this. They must be quite disappointed, although at least they get to have their report each year, to raise things and to ask why this or that regulation has not yet been dealt with. This is not going to be a red-letter day in my diary but, if it keeps the flame burning for others, then so be it.

I have to ask the Minister the same questions that he would ask me if the roles were reversed. Who will be compiling this list of regulations? How much time will they be spending on it? What is the cost? Will there be an opportunity to debate this report in Parliament each year? What format will this take, or will it go to a Select Committee? I wonder about the Government’s priorities. They find time to undertake this task when mortgages are soaring, inflation is still high, people are dying waiting for treatment, unable to see their GP and are pulling their own teeth out. This is what is going on in the country and yet the Government make this a priority.

I understand that the Government intend to accept this amendment, despite everything they have managed to do. They have completely rewritten their Bill. They have shown a little bit of backbone in doing that. I give credit where it is due. Now, at the 11th hour, they think that this is going to get them over the final hurdle. I am disappointed in the Minister for falling at the final fence. I am particularly disappointed in the noble Lords, Lord Frost and Lord Jackson, for settling quite so easily. There we are. I do not think we will bother to oppose the Government on this. Given everything else that has been going on, it does not seem worth the time of the Chamber to do so. This was quite a surprising, last-minute event in the process of this Bill.

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[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 64 and the other amendments in this group. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for the amendment, which, as far as I can count, includes around 120 pieces of subordinate legislation. I welcome it on the grounds of principle and practice.

In practice, it is important to end the limbo between two legal systems for cost, compliance and otherwise. Moreover, there are other good reasons for doing so. The uncertainty of the EU’s codified arrangements, adopted or absorbed into our own laws, results in two overlapping systems that add cost and compliance burdens to all concerned and, I am afraid, often lack clarity. I hesitate to mention such arrangements in your Lordships’ House, given the presence of so many eminent members of the judiciary, but perhaps I might do so as an ordinary person who has had to have recourse to both systems of law.

In my experience, our law is clear; it gives people the power to seek a remedy where another party breaks the law to our disadvantage. Under the European system, of which I have also had experience, despite its code-based arrangements and its precautionary principle, which seeks to cover every eventuality, not only does it sometimes fail to do so but there is often no remedy available to people or small businesses if a wrong is done to them. There are just more codes, more compliance, more directives and more consultations with the lawyers to be paid for, and little in the end to be done other than put up with it and hope it will be righted in due course.

For this reason, I welcome the sentiment behind the noble Baronesses’ proposals in their carve-out amendments on the National Emission Ceilings Regulations and the Water Resources (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations. I am very sympathetic to their aims and have spoken on that in earlier debates. However, I am sceptical as to whether this is the best way of achieving such aims. I believe it is important to respect our own laws and have greater confidence that the principles on which they rest will reflect the interests of the people in whose name they are made. This country is second to none generally in its commitment to caring for its environment and, having heard noble Lords talk about chairing the Woodland Trust and so on, it is clear that there is huge voluntary support for protecting our environment. I believe our own laws will reflect that interest and we really must get on with giving them a chance.

In the Environment Act 2021 and its impact assessment of December 2019, the principle is clear that the polluter pays. Yes, precautions must be taken and problems righted at source, but the polluter pays principle means that instead of victims, others are having to suffer the consequences. Rather than the polluter being penalised, other people would have to suffer the consequences and pay the price, and I think that our system will be clear and fairer.

I am not sure, either, that the EU regulations covering emissions are necessarily effective. I draw on the historic case of the Volkswagen emissions scandal, when there were clear directives from 2008—updated in 2012—covering the emissions from cars. These were neglected or not enforced, and the knowledge that that was happening went right up to the Government. I am confident in our own system of law, and I think it does work.

I hate to disagree with such a distinguished civil servant as the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, but I am not going to take sides on the question of who is to blame for non-rapidity. I worked with the head of the German hospital division in the decade after the unification of Germany. The country was unified at the stroke of a pen, so it can be done. I only know about the health system there, not all the other areas such as the economy, where historic problems were inherited.

I welcome the commitment to revoke the legislation listed. I hope the noble Baronesses will put their trust in our own laws and give their energies to an aim which I share. It is important for a more effective system and for clarity and efficiency, so that people, businesses, charities and government departments know where they stand.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I dare say that the Conservative Party could use the experience the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, has in unifying Germany to perhaps unify itself.

This has been a rancorous debate and before I join in, I have a bit of housekeeping to do with the Minister. When he was still trying to push 5,000 laws over a cliff edge at the end of last year, on a number of occasions he used examples to illustrate the intrinsically trivial nature of all 5,000. One of the examples he used was legislation referring to reindeers and another was legislation referring to olive trees. I have studied the list, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, and I find no mention of reindeers or olive trees. Can I assume that those laws will remain on the statute book—or did they not in fact exist in the first place?

As we heard from my noble friends Lady Bakewell and Lady Brinton, we on these Benches really welcome the Government’s 180 degree U-turn. However, the breathless nature of that U-turn brought with it problems. We are debating those problems now because, in choosing not to eliminate 5,000 anonymous regulations—in essence, regulations that we did not need to know about—and in having to choose the regulations that will be revoked, the Government have had to publish this schedule very late and, even later, give us guidance on the decision-making process that went into putting those regulations on that list.

My noble friend Lady Brinton’s experience in trying to track a legacy of statutory instruments and regulations that did not get properly documented, in a way that was easy to follow, completely illustrates what the Civil Service was seeking to do 5,000 times—and many of those cases were even more complex, I dare say, than the case my noble friend Lady Brinton dealt with. In order to do that, the first thing the Civil Service had to do was to find those regulations and laws.

When the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, talked about it being the Civil Service’s role to dig up these regulations, he was not far from the truth. Many of these regulations were located at the bottom of a salt mine in an archive—I am not joking—in the north-west of this country. They had to don their safety gear and go underground to seek out these regulations. That is the level of digging-out that had to happen in order to do this.

That is why it is extraordinarily unfair to then put the blame on people who do not have a voice and are not able to answer back. They are lucky to have the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, to stand up for them, but it is bullying behaviour to bully people who do not have a voice. To my namesake, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and others, I say that “the blob” is an entirely derogatory term. These are people who do a job, and to roll them up and call them a blob is deeply offensive and against those people’s welfare.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, set up exactly the problem we have here. I have hope in “Hope’s amendments”—that we can at least regain some control. I remind noble Lords that we also passed a non-regression amendment that should deal with some of these issues. It is, as the noble and learned Lord said, not an ideal situation.

I look forward to the Minister’s response on the specifics, but deep in the heart of this whole process is a problem. The problem is that the Government set out to do something in too short a time, when they did not even know how big the job was in the first place. When they found out, they drew back. Now, they are trying to blame other people. The Government have no one but themselves to blame for the mess over which they are now officiating.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the final debate on this Bill has highlighted just what a shambolic process this has been. We were glad to receive the explainer that the Government produced to accompany the new schedule, which is what we are supposed to be arguing about now in this group. But it was late, badly formatted and, as we have heard, not easily usable by some colleagues.

What we are experiencing this afternoon is the frustration that we have all felt with that element of the process and with this Bill since its introduction. At the climax of the process, we find ourselves just as confused and concerned as at the outset. There has not been adequate time to examine the contents of the schedule. Noble Lords have had to use this Report debate to try to get answers from Ministers on some of the specifics. This is exactly what we thought would happen. It is why we supported the amendment from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, on Monday, and why we will support his Amendment 76. We have debated it already. It will be voted on immediately after this group. We need the safeguards that these amendments provide. Given the way in which this Bill has been handled, the Government need these safeguards too.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

We are on Report. We do not need to wait until the next stage; I can tell the noble Lord now that there is a power in the amendments to allow exactly that. He does not need to have any further concerns about it.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, I say that the UK remains committed to international agreements on air pollution, to which we are an independent signatory. We set new, legally binding targets under the Environment Act and the environmental improvement plan to halt and to reverse nature’s decline. The stretching targets mean that any reform to retained EU law must deliver positive environmental outcomes, and nothing in this schedule alters those commitments. I hope that reassures the noble Baroness.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and his famous salt mine example, I am sorry to tell him that he is wrong. The National Archives found its pieces of retained EU law in its EU legislation database, which is now online. The noble Lord might want to consult the internet next time, rather than crawling down his salt mine. One of my officials said that she would have loved to have gone down a salt mine—it would have been a very interesting experience—but she did not need to.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I think the Minister should check that.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can absolutely assure him: she would have been delighted to go down a salt mine. I will not name her, but she messaged me to say that she was very keen to do so. Perhaps the noble Lord would want to arrange it for her.

The noble Lord also mentioned several regulations which are good examples of EU-inherited provisions that we may no longer need. He may not realise it, but some regulations perform multiple functions—we want to revoke some and to keep or reform others. To update and improve the regulations, we of course need to keep them for now, so that we can make those changes.

I had a feeling that the noble Lord might ask me about the famous reindeer regulation. Indeed, Regulation 1308/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council includes provisions on reindeer, which we want to revoke because, the last time I looked, there were not many in the United Kingdom for which we need to have responsibility—perhaps even the noble Lord could agree with that. But there are other aspects of the regulation that we want to keep; therefore, in due course, there will be a reform programme which will alter that regulation. Of course, the House will get to see that through a statutory instrument at the time. I have no doubt that the noble Lord will want to engage with the Defra Minister in a meaningful debate on how important it is for the Liberal Democrats to preserve the preservation of reindeer in Lapland.

Finally, I turn to the issue of interpretative effects. My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked again for clarity on the Government’s intention. I assure her that the Government’s intentions have not changed in this regard. As she will be aware, the House agreed to Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, on Monday, which seeks to replace the sunset of Section 4 of the EU withdrawal Act at the end of each year with a requirement for the Secretary of State to make a statement on the Section 4 rights and obligations which will be sunsetted at the end of this year. The House can be assured that the Government will address that.

Clauses 5 and 6, which relate to the ending of the principle of supremacy, including the principle of consistent interpretation or indirect effect and ending the application of general principles of EU law, will stand part of the Bill, as agreed by the House.