Post Office Update

Lord Fox Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, let us remind ourselves of the human scale of this outrage. Starting more than 20 years ago, the Post Office prosecuted nearly 1,000 sub- postmasters and sub-postmistresses based on incorrect information from a recently installed computer system. Some went to prison following convictions for false accounting and theft, many were financially ruined, and some have since died with the shame of this still hanging over them and their families.

As we know, a subset of those people were acquitted and, as we discussed around a month ago, the Government have asked Sir Wyn Williams to inquire into this episode. We are of course pleased that the lid is beginning to be lifted on some of these issues. Speaking on 28 April about suggestions that the inquiry was underpowered, the Minister was very clear:

“Given that all parties so far are committed to co-operating, we remain of the view that a non-statutory inquiry is the right approach.”


He added:

“However, if Sir Wyn does not get the co-operation he requires, then all options are on the table and we will not hesitate to act.”—[Official Report, 28/4/21; col. 2324.]


Today we are discussing a new Statement that says the context of the inquiry has changed, hence the move to a statutory basis, but it cites the successful appeal as that context. That is strange as the results of that appeal were available on 28 April. So what has actually changed? What has caused the department to change its mind? For example, has the co-operation of which the Minister spoke evaporated? If so, who is now no longer co-operating?

I do not think the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, or I are surprised that this change has had to happen. Like her, we welcome it as a small step in the right direction, but I point out that on an already tight schedule this has not helped. On 28 April the Minister said he expected the report in the summer, and in your Lordships’ House the Minister was adamant that this deadline could be met. Now the inquiry report is delayed. What will take the extra time? What has caused that delay? Will the new deadline of the autumn be met?

As the Statement suggested, the terms of reference for Sir Wyn have been amended. As we do not have the benefit of tracked changes, can the Minister please outline for the record and for your Lordships the principal changes in those terms of reference? If we look overall at the terms of reference, the overriding problem is there for all of us to see: six clauses, each set out with very passive language. “Assess”, “understand” and “acknowledge” are all good words, I will admit, but they are not an indicator that this inquiry has any way to identify culprits. They are not the words of a robust bringing to book. Even if he wanted to, Sir Wyn will not be able to go beyond those terms of reference as there is no wriggle room. If this is the only inquiry, I fear it is not going to be a satisfactory one.

For example, section B of the terms of reference uses the words

“to establish a clear account of…the implementation and failings of Horizon”

and the Post Office’s use of that information—the latter are my words, not those of the ToR. Given that this inquiry is essentially a fact-finding mission, what will the Government do with the facts when they get them? Further, it seems to be focused largely on the failure of the Horizon system and not that of Post Office management—and, as we know, this case was compounded by what appears to have been an intentional decision by the Post Office not to disclose material that undermined its case. So where in the terms of reference will this issue be tested and judged?

As in other cases, there are two levels of failure here. The first was an excess of trust in the system and technology; the second was the failure to deal with the consequences of this when the facts became apparent to some people within that organisation. This inquiry is set up to learn lessons from history but not to deal with the legacy of this past. With these terms of reference, I do not see how this inquiry will establish culpability from these facts, and how it will be the means to deliver resolution to the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and their families over whom this case hangs. I do not see it as a route to compensating these people. So, while it is a step forward, I can understand why former sub-postmasters are demanding a judge-led inquiry into this scandal. I have a great deal of sympathy for their demand.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for their comments. Let me say from the start that I completely share their outrage about this scandal, as I think they both know. It has been going on for many years, under many different Ministers and Governments, and we should all accept our share of the responsibility for the dreadful way these poor people were treated. Nobody who saw them emerging on to the steps of the High Court a few weeks ago could have failed to have been moved by what they had to say.

Turning to the many questions that the noble Lords asked, as I said, this Government deeply regret that this situation has occurred. Since it was launched in September 2020, the Post Office Horizon inquiry has made swift progress. The inquiry’s chairman, Sir Wyn Williams, and his team have heard from many affected postmasters and gathered evidence from key parties, including the Post Office, my department, UKGI and Fujitsu.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked about the changes to the terms of reference. It is clearly critical that the inquiry is able to look at exactly what decisions were made and why, in relation to the Horizon prosecutions, so that lessons can be learned. The terms of reference have changed to clarify that the inquiry can investigate the Post Office’s decision-making in taking action against postmasters, including pursuing prosecutions and a fairly aggressive legal strategy, and in particular of course it can investigate the cases of those whose prosecutions have now been quashed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked about accountability. Let me be clear, for the avoidance of doubt, that the inquiry can make findings of fact and make recommendations. With regards to accountability, as noble Lords will understand, matters of criminal and civil law remain for the courts, as only the courts can make such judgments. However, they and other bodies can draw on the findings of the inquiry when considering these issues. It is therefore now for Sir Wyn to establish what happened, what went wrong and why it went wrong. We can then consider whether more needs to be done in the light of those findings.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked about the timeframe for the inquiry. The deadline for the final report has now been extended to autumn 2022, to take account of the new statutory nature of the inquiry, but we are expecting a progress update later this summer. The changes to the inquiry’s timeline mean that Sir Wyn will have more time to determine exactly what went wrong at the Post Office during this period and to make sure that a situation such as this cannot happen again.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, both raised the issue of compensation. I know that many postmasters, and Peers across this House, have called for further compensation for those who have been caught up in this situation. Those whose convictions have been quashed, with a settlement amounted in the group litigation, are of course outside the scope of the inquiry. But, as I said previously, the Government are keen to see that all sub-postmasters whose convictions are overturned are fairly compensated as quickly as possible. We will ensure that we work with the Post Office to make this happen as quickly as it is possible to organise.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to Fujitsu. She will be aware that two Fujitsu employees are still the subject of a police investigation. However, so far Fujitsu has co-operated fully with the terms of the inquiry. I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that all actions of the Post Office, including its fairly aggressive legal strategy, can and will be examined under the terms of the inquiry.