Civil Procedure (Amendment) (EU Exit) Rules 2019

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 25th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Object.

[Baroness Goldie]

It may assist the noble Lord if I explain that I am not taking the two instruments together. I am going to speak to them together but they will be moved separately.

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Before making the rules of court, the Lord Chancellor consulted the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales and the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland in January 2019, and they raised no concerns. I welcome this opportunity to discuss the statutory instruments and to answer questions from noble Lords. I beg to move.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I hesitated to rise because I was sure that a number of other people would raise issues. A number of distinguished lawyers, people who understand the constitution better than I do and people who understand, even more than I do, the implications of what we are doing are present. We are dealing with something of monumental importance. Those of us who are astonished at the way that the Prime Minister is acting at the moment—as though she were a dictator in a banana republic—are amazed at the way that some Members of Parliament of both Houses seem to be sitting back and letting it happen.

The implications are astonishing. We have already looked at them in relation to visas. We are now told that if we come out of the European Union at the end of March we will have to have visas, and it will cost €60 to go to countries which we can now go to freely and as many times as we like. We will have lorry parks all over Kent because of the arrangements for customs clearance. There are questions over medicines and food supplies, which people are really worried about. The president of the CBI is warning us on behalf of all industries of the Armageddon that we face. On aviation, we have already discussed how we are still concerned that flights might not be guaranteed to all destinations after the end of March.

We now come to a life or death matter which is of great importance to everyone. We are talking about sanctions against Daesh or ISIS, action against Russian oligarchs and dealing with terrorists. These are major issues. All it needs is for some mistakes to creep into the statutory instrument that we are considering for something dreadful to happen and for us to fail to be able to deal with terrorists in the future or impose sanctions when we wish to. There are likely to be unintended consequences if we get this wrong.

Normally, if we were starting from scratch, we would go through primary legislation line by line. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, with his huge knowledge, would alert us to some of the imperfections contained in it and my good friend, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope—again, from his great experience—would point out some of the difficulties. We would go through it line by line and be able to consider and vote on amendments. However, because this is being dealt with through a statutory instrument it is, again, a take-it-or-leave-it situation.

It is absolutely unacceptable for a Parliament to be treated in this way. I find it astonishing that people whom I know to be manifestly concerned are willing to sit quietly and let this get through. This is not acting as a Parliament and scrutinising something in the way that we should; it is a meek acceptance of something being pushed through, having been started to patch up differences in the Conservative Party for party-political reasons by David Cameron, who has now fled the scene. He is no longer with us or taking any responsibility for the mess that he has got us into. Other people spread lies during the leave campaign about what was to happen and some of them, for a while, took the Queen’s shilling, but they are no longer with us or taking responsibility for what is happening. It is outrageous that this is being undertaken. I hope that at some point before the end of March, more and more people will get up and call the situation unacceptable, which it is. If we allow all these statutory instruments to go through again and again—day after day, without question or challenge—then we are not fulfilling our function as a legislative Chamber of the Houses of Parliament of the United Kingdom, and we should be ashamed.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am not outraged. I welcome the statutory instrument. I have merely a factual question to put to the Minister. Paragraph 3.4 on page 1 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“In the view of the Department, for the purposes of Standing Order … the subject matter of this entire instrument would be within the devolved legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament if equivalent provision in relation to Scotland were included in the Act of the Scottish Parliament”.


My understanding is that the current legislation is governed by the regulations adopted in Scotland in 2017. Can the Minister tell us how the department in question reached that conclusion, and what discussions were had with the relevant department and with the Scottish Parliament itself before bringing forward the statutory instrument today?

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[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I am very grateful to those who have contributed. Let me address the important questions raised. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, raised a wide range of issues. His pertinent question was “Where are the lawyers?”; he asked why they were not standing up. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, answered that question neatly, to use a judicial phrase, by stating that he had nothing to say. That is perhaps characteristic of him sometimes—although fortunately, for the benefit of this House, not always. I think it is a very helpful commentary on what are technically fairly mechanical provisions, if I might describe them as such.

On the important point about scrutiny, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that these instruments are made under an Act of primary legislation—Section 40 of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018—which this House went through line by line. The details of these SIs raised no new issues. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, had a similar concern about that.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering raised the question of Scotland and Section 38 of the sanctions Act, which makes provisions to the effect that these rules of court need be made by Westminster in relation only to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland is to make its own rules, as per the primary legislation. As she will be aware, rules of court in Scotland are different and it is entirely appropriate that the devolved Parliament is placed in charge of these matters.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, also raised what he described as the creep of closed material procedures. I understand his concern, but let me try to allay it. The Government believe that these procedures are right for cases which involve national security material. Previously, these cases were unable to proceed, which meant that questions posed by claimants remained unanswered. That seems unsatisfactory. The defendant—the Government—could not fully present their case, which is also unsatisfactory. In that event, designations might have had to be revoked. The purpose of the sanctions Act, augmented by these regulations, is to ensure that the hiatus, or dilemma, for both Government and applicants is resolved.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, also raised an interesting question about the drafting format, asking why we were amending Part 79 rather than creating a new one. Amending the existing rules of court was felt to be the most appropriate and proportionate way to draft these instruments, because it ensures that the effect of closed material proceedings is unchanged in the context of sanctions decisions; in other words, there is a consistency about the provisions.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about delay. As he is aware, a very considerable volume of statutory instruments has been reaching the other place and this House. I acknowledge that a large body of work has had to be resolved and processed by this House. That has gone through the committee and sifting procedures. I accept that this instrument has been fairly late coming to this House but I hope that your Lordships accept, given the very technical nature of these provisions, which do not create any new policy matters, that it has been addressed adequately by the Government and that your Lordships have been given the opportunity to scrutinise them.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I find the noble Baroness’s reply very reassuring. I am most grateful to her.