Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank the Minister for his introduction and explanation. I will explore one or two aspects of this because, as he said himself, it is complex. It is a mixture of devolved and reserved matters.

I will first look at reserved matters relating to human rights, because we have clearly had some controversies in Scottish policing over the last few years. The Liberal Democrats oppose the creation of a Scottish national police force. We believe our criticisms and concerns have been somewhat borne out, certainly in the early part, by the way the national force conducted itself and the fact it appeared to be under somewhat more direct political control than many of us would regard as appropriate and would be the case for police forces in England.

In particular, we saw a massive increase in the use of stop and search by the police in Scotland. In 2013-14, there were 450,173 “consensual” searches. The meaning of “consent” is rather subjective in that context. There were 192,470 statutory searches. Not surprisingly, this created a great deal of public reaction. The Scottish Government responded to that; I give them credit for that, but they needed to because it was a very strong reaction. Consequently, the figures the following year, at least from 1 April to 30 September, saw consensual searches drop to 888 from 450,000 and the statutory searches from 192,470 to 20,665. Consensual searches are now banned altogether, so that is a step in the right direction. I want to check with the Minister, where part of the reaction was not just that public concern but human rights implications that would fall on the UK Government, does this combination of Acts by the Scottish Parliament and this statutory instrument maybe avoid the possibility of that particular question of human rights being addressed again?

The other area is the issue of cross-border policing generally. The Minister mentioned the MoD police, civil nuclear police and British Transport Police. The Scottish Government have taken over the responsibility of the British Transport Police north of the border. Many of us felt that that was a retrograde step too. I am a passionate home ruler, a passionate believer in devolution and supporter of the Scottish Parliament, but I believe that we should also recognise that, as long as we are part of the United Kingdom—which the people of Scotland want us to be—devolution should be to enhance and bring Government closer, but not to undermine the advantages of collective working across the United Kingdom. It seems to me that there will be circumstances where the transport police could be inhibited in their role in cross-border policing. Can the Minister give some clarification as to whether this instrument will affect that positively, negatively or not at all?

I do not have the capacity to go through the whole SI in detail, but there seem to be a number of issues that are really quite important, including to clarify how the devolved and reserved powers can work constructively together—which is why we are not opposing the instrument—but some clarification is nevertheless necessary of what that really means. There also needs to be an understanding, or perhaps appreciation, that the Scottish Government have learned a little bit about their excessive zeal in creating a national police force, which has led to quite considerable friction. I mention again the appearance of mounted police at highland league football matches and routinely arming police officers in rural villages. Things such as that are well within the devolved capacity of the Scottish Government but bring human rights issues into question, so they are not of some indifference to the United Kingdom Government, who have to answer if there are questions of human rights compromises by a devolved Government or Administration.

Having said that, and supporting the passage of the instrument, I would nevertheless appreciate it if the Minister could answer those questions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to raise two points. The first, briefly, is an important one on European arrest warrants and whether there is any implication when—if—we go out of the European Union. Will cross-border activity by police using European arrest warrants be affected?

I have a major objection, however, following up what my noble friend has said. I warn that I am going to cause real trouble on the next instrument. I am sorry that I have not alerted my noble friend and colleague on the Front Bench, but I am not going to support it. I will vote against it. I am not going to agree that it should go forward because of what we have just heard about the British Transport Police—and I feel even more strongly about it. It is a major mistake. We and the Government should recognise now that we have all made a major mistake in agreeing that the responsibility for the British Transport Police should be devolved to Holyrood.

I am in favour of devolution. I campaigned for it and, unlike my noble friend on the Front Bench, I have been a long-standing supporter of devolution. But the way in which it is being dealt with by the Government in relation to the British Transport Police is, quite frankly, dangerous, reckless and ought to be stopped. Ruth Davidson—who I understand is the most important Conservative in the whole United Kingdom—has been attacking this and has said that it should be stopped.

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[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I was hoping that there would be another question to give me a minute or two longer. In the absence of that additional question, I will try to answer the questions that I can. First, I welcome the support from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, and other noble Lords and recognise the dissent from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I will come back to that point.

In answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, about the training and the costs of training, the reserved forces operating in Scotland have been trained through existing budgets. Police Scotland has assisted in this by carrying out training courses for those reserved bodies operating in Scotland. It has also continued supporting partner agencies to adjust to the Act. So there should be no additional costs. However, the noble Lord is quite right to raise the question. We need to make sure that we keep an eye on this. Offering training once and believing that that is all is not enough. We need to make sure this is ongoing training and that it is delivering. It is important that we make sure that we are auditing the outcome and output of the training.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, who has asked some serious questions about human rights, noble Lords will recall that the Cadder case originated from a human rights issue. That was the reason why the Government were very keen to move forward.

On stop and search, noble Lords will be aware that this is an operational matter, which limits my ability to comment specifically. However, I note again that where there are issues such as this, they can and should be addressed directly through organisations in Scotland. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, welcomed, Susan Deacon, the new chair of the oversight body. I believe that that appointment will be a useful addition to the overall oversight matter. These issues need to be addressed directly through that point. If violations of human rights occur, they can be raised and escalated through the different strata. In the first instance, it would be a matter for the Scottish Government to address.

I will come back in a moment to the more complicated question on the British Transport Police. However, in answer to the first question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the European arrest warrant is still a subject for negotiation, so we do not yet have clarity on exactly what that will mean. If noble Lords will forgive me, I will postpone answering that question until I have an answer to it. That is probably the sensible thing to do.

The noble Lord has made a passionate point about the British Transport Police. I think not a single person on these Benches does not share his concern about some of the issues which seem to be unfolding, not for the sake of better policing or for better serving the people, but rather for a narrower, more factional agenda. I think we all have a certain degree of unease about that particular aspect. The important thing for me to note at this point is that the Smith commission recommended by consensus that powers over this would be devolved back to the Scottish Parliament and to the Scottish Government. In this instance, the Scottish Government are operating within their competence to do so. I share some of the noble Lord’s unease and I am sure that this will not be the end of the matter.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

On the Smith commission, with no disrespect to the noble Lord, Lord Smith, for whom I have great respect, or to the other members of the commission, it is possible they did not get everything right. They were rushed. They had to do things very quickly and were under a lot of pressure from the SNP in particular. At the end, John Swinney, having signed up and agreed to the Smith commission, said at the press conference that he did not accept the recommendations —an astonishing situation. If they can do that, we have the right to think again as well.

I may be wrong on procedure, but I think that if we do not agree this today, it goes to the House at a later date. That will give the Minister time to think and to consult. In that case, he might be able to consult not only David Mundell and Ruth Davidson but—can I go higher?—even Theresa May about this, because there is genuine concern. I have expressed it strongly, but it is expressed even more strongly by some leading Conservatives as well as other people in my own party. I hope we can have a pause in this statutory instrument. I do not think it would delay it unduly. It would give the Minister time to go back and say, “Look, I as a Minister faced this furore”. Although they have not got to their feet, all the people round the Committee Room were nodding when I was making this point. The Minister has made the point himself and substantially agreed with me. This would give the Minister time to go back and perhaps find a way to get the matter reconsidered.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I will, I hope, be guided on points of procedure regarding the noble Lord’s exact question. However, I know that whatever we agree here today, the order must then move to the Floor of the House, at which point there will, I imagine, be an opportunity for this point to be made in the Chamber and for a Division to be called on the point.

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[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That is a very good point indeed. I believe that I will be able to raise this very point both behind the scenes and with my counterparts north of the border, and then it will be discussed more fully in due course.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful for the assurances of the Minister and, even more, of my noble friends, both of whom are part of the usual channels in one way or another. I feel no less strongly about it, but I understand the procedure that should be followed.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am very happy for that. Again, I will do all I can to take this forward in the manner in which we have discussed over the past few moments.