House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 21st July 2025 Lords Chamber

Being a hereditary-minded person, I am very proud to have grandchildren. It is unlikely, I admit, but if they ever ask me what I did in the war for parliamentary reform, I want to be able to say, “Well, my dears, I tried to uphold Parliament’s independence and legitimacy”.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, my grandchildren refer to the Parliament building from outside as “Grandpa’s office”.

This is a moment in which we have lit a fuse; a fuse which will ultimately change irrevocably the nature of the House of Lords and, more importantly, and perhaps for those at the other end to consider, the House of Commons.

I have always been opposed to the idea of an elected House of Lords, partly because of my experience in the House of Commons and my belief in the primacy of the House of Commons. As our leader, my noble friend Lord True, pointed out, to suddenly create a House which is wholly appointed and depends wholly on prime ministerial patronage is to open the gates for the arguments which we have heard for so many years from the Liberal Benches for an elected House. How can it be possible to sustain the idea that it is better to have people appointed by Prime Ministers than people who are elected by the people?

There is an opportunity, by accepting the amendment which has been made to the Bill, to at least mitigate it. If people see that Prime Ministers can remove whole groups of people, whether that is hereditaries, people over the age of 80 or people who have some other characteristic, then the voters will ask why the Prime Minister should choose and why they, as electors, should not choose.

If we have an elected House, as the leader of the Liberal Democrats wants—I am calling them Liberal Democrats today, because he is making a democratic argument—I think we will find that the future of the House of Commons as the primary Chamber will change irrevocably. That is the basis upon which all reforms have failed, when the penny has suddenly dropped for Members of Parliament that there will be a Member of the second Chamber in their constituencies; that their role as constituency MPs will be undermined; that their ability to make promises on the doorstep will be second-guessed; and that party management will result in the membership of this House, under an elected system, being determined by party leaders, so that it is filled with people who go along with whatever the party management wish—not something that I find very attractive.

I just hope that, at the other end, in the zeal for getting rid of hereditaries, which your Lordships’ House has done, they do not miss the point that they have a lit a fuse, which may very well blow everything they believe in and support apart, to the detriment of our country and the good management of our law.