Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body (Abolition) Regulations 2022

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, this is not an area that I have looked at very carefully but, when I looked at these regulations, I was rather puzzled by what we hope to achieve by them. The Lord Privy Seal, in his opening remarks, told us that we would not lose the existing expertise and that the delivery authority would be unchanged. So it is not clear to me why transferring responsibility to a corporate body, which is undefined but I assume is the two clerks of the respective Houses, will alter the proposal that was going to cost £13 billion or £14 billion—whichever it was—which, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, just pointed out, is pretty unaffordable in the current climate. Whether you need to be elected or not, spending that kind of money is simply not possible in the current climate. The money is not there. I am worried by exactly what the benefit of this will be, because it looks like the same people are confronted with the same problem, which they have to take forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, talked about the belief, which he described as “naive”, that it would be possible to do this without political interference. The reason I want to speak on these regulations is to express frustration at the way projects are carried out in this place, without proper consultation with the Members. In the other place, Members are responsible for voting the means of supply. In this place, to some degree, we are responsible for explaining why these sums of money are being spent.

I can give a more recent example. The decision to alter the security arrangements at Carriage Gates results in traffic going in a one-way system along what is called Chorus Avenue at the front of the House of Lords. That will cost £70 million and, in the process, will put pedestrians at considerable risk. A number of colleagues have argued that there should be a perimeter fence around the House and that that area should be closed to pedestrians. It is very dangerous, and one person lost their life crossing the road. When colleagues make these remarks and talk to the authorities—the corporate body, as it exists—they are ignored.

There is huge opposition to the creation of a new front door to this House. The cost was £2.5 million and it is now £3 million—for a front door. One worries about value for money. The argument put forward is security but, at the end of the day, it is up to Members to discuss these ideas instead of them being imposed on us. We are told that the changes to Carriage Gates and their effect on us are going to happen, that we have no say in the matter and that considerable sums are being spent.

I want to ask my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal a number of questions. First, how much have we already spent on deciding what to do? I understand it runs to hundreds of millions of pounds. Secondly, why is it going to be any different and where is the accountability? The only thing I can see in these regulations is that there is going to be an annual report:

“At least once in every calendar year, the Corporate Officers must prepare and lay before Parliament a report about the carrying out of the Parliamentary building works and the progress that has been made towards completion of those works.”


There is nothing about the expense, estimates or accountability. I find it difficult to accept the idea that an annual report will provide accountability to Members of this House or the other place.

In short, I look at these regulations and it seems to me that nothing is actually going to change and that the fundamental, systemic, strategic problem remains. The noble Lord, Lord Best, said he thought that we might end up doing a series of small projects, perhaps concentrating on the problems in the basement, if indeed that is practical. I may be a Peer, but I do not have a stately home. However, if I imagine for a moment that I have a huge stately home on the scale of this place and I have to be involved in restoration and renewal, if a bunch of consultants came to me and said, “The cheapest way to do this is for you to move out and for the whole thing to be done in one go”, if I were spending my own money I would almost certainly say, “Not on your life.” I would say, “Why don’t we do it a bit at a time over the next 30 years, because that way I might be able to afford it?” To try to do everything in one go is unaffordable. Of course it is always possible to argue that the costs will be less if you do it all in one go, although the experience of building this place in the 1850s was that it did not quite work out that like.

I say to my noble friend that I worry about these regulations. I understand what they do, but I am not sure that they will deliver for the taxpayer what the taxpayer might expect or what the Members of this place might expect in carrying out their duties.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

My Lords, this building is like a patient held together with bandages and sticking plasters when only serious surgery can restore it to health. Advice from a range of experts makes it clear that the best way forward is for Members to move to temporary accommodation while the intrusive and very disruptive work is carried out.

It was precisely because making this happen would be so difficult and controversial that Parliament put into statute a sponsor body for the project to act independently and supposedly free from political interference. However, ever since the ink was dry on the Act of Parliament, the sponsor body’s work has been sabotaged by powerful Members of the Commons who want the Palace to be restored and made safe only so long as it causes no inconvenience to them personally and they can remain in the Palace while the work is carried out. Meanwhile, the functions of the delivery authority, which needed to undertake extensive surveys, have also persistently been held back by restrictions on access. So short-term expediency and convenience have won, while the longer-term interests of this Parliament have lost.

So what now? We now have to examine the new arrangements and ensure that they are fit for purpose. If we are no longer to have an independent sponsor body and the project is to become the province of Parliament, it follows that the new arrangements should at the very least be more accountable, but I worry that the new structure will not live up to that ambition. There is to be a programme board with day-to-day responsibility for the project. It is to be

“as small, as senior and as stable as possible to support its effectiveness, but as large as necessary to reflect the range of key stakeholders that need to be represented.”

Meanwhile, the client, in theory replacing the sponsor body and instructing the programme board, will be the two commissions of the Commons and the Lords sitting together. Having been a member of the commission in this House for four years, I say with great respect to its individual members that I am not confident that those arrangements will result in accountability either. Each commission is a large, opaque body and is noted for neither its transparency nor its swift decision-making. So I worry that this structure loses the independence the sponsor body set up but gains us nothing in accountability.

This is important, because Parliament’s in-house record of managing very large- scale projects on time and on budget is dismal. Every very large project, from Westminster Hall to the Elizabeth Tower, has run vastly over budget and miles behind the original timescale. Unless there is very careful oversight, there is no reason to believe that the limited restoration and renewal now on offer will not suffer the same fate.

We have to ask whether the commissions as client of the programme board will really devote the necessary time and be sufficiently independent to scrutinise this project. Of course, the Public Accounts Committee in the Commons will do its best to keep an eye on progress, but it already has an incredible workload. The National Audit Office will likewise continue to conduct its in-depth analysis of whether what has been spent provides value for money for the taxpayer, but both bodies have the whole gamut of public spending to look at, and their accountability mechanisms rely entirely on very busy Members of the Commons. Meanwhile, they both act retrospectively, blowing the whistle after vast sums of money have been spent rather than identifying problems coming down the track and raising the alarm.

I wish the commissions, the programme board and the delivery authority well, but I have very serious reservations about whether today’s SI really leads us to a better, more robust and more accountable means to achieve restoration and renewal. Regrettably, I fear that we are setting up overlapping echo chambers that, despite the best of intentions, will result in less transparency, less accountability and ultimately less chance of delivering a successful project. I very much hope that events will prove me wrong, but I am not holding my breath.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I agree with all the comments so far, but I repeat the words of my noble friend Lady Smith when we debated the report the SI has come out of, to end the previous structure. She emphasised that this

“is not our building. It belongs to the nation as the home of Parliament, and we have a responsibility as custodians of this building for future generations.”—[Official Report, 13/7/22; col. 1542.]

It is not about what we want but about protecting something that has been the symbol of democracy for hundreds of years. That is my starting point.

Whenever I hear the phrase “we want to avoid political interference”, I know that it will lead to political interference, as opposed to what this project needs more than anything: political buy-in. How do we ensure that when decisions are made, those with the responsibility for funding will support it? There is no point having grand plans if, at the end of it, people say that it is not affordable. We must have political buy-in—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

The noble Lord said that it is not our building. Who, then, is the client? Who is responsible for deciding what happens if it is not the Members of this House and the other place? Who is the client?

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

We clearly are. I am not saying that we are not. I was hoping to make the case that our responsibility is not limited simply to what we want for now. Our responsibility is to look to future generations as custodians of this place and not simply managers. Even more importantly, we talk about accountability, but I want to keep using the words “political buy-in”, because at every stage of this project we have to ensure that there is consensus and political buy-in. When we start making party-political points, we will fail.

When the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, was Chair of the Finance Committee and I was a member of it, we had regular discussions about this. There is perhaps a wider assumption in the world outside that this building needs restoration and that we are planning a restoration programme, but this building is like the Forth Road Bridge: we have not stopped restoring it. We have spent hundreds of millions of pounds a year to restore the fabric of this building. The problem, as we all know, is that when this building was built by the Victorians it was full of shortcuts and making do. Since then, we too have been making shortcuts and making do, which has added to the problem. A lot of the difficulties we face are from periods when we have made this innovation here and developed something else there. The mechanical and engineering problems we face downstairs did not start with the Victorians; they have been going on since the place was built. How do we address that?

I agree that we can all be frustrated by decisions being made without proper consultation. When I was on the Finance Committee, what I found most frustrating was trying to pin down the people making the decisions and make them responsible for those decisions. We do not make them accountable by taking responsibility away from them; we have to do the opposite. Making them responsible and accountable means that we, as the custodians, should set clear objectives and policies, so that when they are managing the programme, we can ask whether they have met those objectives and whether they have been successful. Those objectives may be cost objectives or other objectives.

The Clerk of the Parliaments has heard me say many times that I want to ensure that he can measure his activity against the clear policies we set. The arguments against decanting are about the big costs and that, in decanting, we are being too extravagant. Actually, one can make the case that decanting could save money. The QEII Centre was built some time ago and its own mechanics and electrics are in desperate need of renewal. That has been postponed, because we may move in and help it to do the work, so the process that we immediately think could cost a lot of money could save the public and the taxpayer a substantial amount of money. The issue is how we define those objectives and look at what we are doing as a whole.

One other thing that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said was absolutely right. When we look at R&R, we must integrate properly what we are doing now in restoring this building. When I was on the Finance Committee, I thought, “Do we delay that to fit it in with R&R? Do we move forward on it? Is it taken into account in R&R?” All these issues have not been properly addressed.

We all have a responsibility—in particular, for the new governance structure, which I support. I should declare an interest, because I am going to be a member of the programme board; hopefully, I will be able to keep expressing the opinions I am expressing today. I will not be saying, “Tell me to make this decision”. I will be saying, “I want you to make the decision, but based on the clear policy objectives set by both the programme board and the two commissions”. That is what I hope to see but I am not fixed, by the way. If someone can persuade me that not decanting fully could work, I will go with it, but I like the idea that setting clear objectives, budgeting properly for them and having proper buy-in is a better way of doing this.

I support the regulations. We have made the decision anyway; we have already had a debate. I think that we will make this project more transparent with more accountability. I support that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, that is an important challenge. On the local authority that I once had the honour to lead, one of the first things I did was ensure that items of spending over a certain level were put on the web immediately, which was not then current practice. I am sympathetic to the aspiration. I am only Leader of the House of Lords; I am not commanding this process. As Leader of the House of Lords I will try to ensure that matters are as clear as they should be.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

On the point about my noble friend not commanding the process—in many ways, I wish he was—there is a real problem, to pick up on what he said about the most recent project. It is a cultural thing. It is a culture of, “We are here to be done unto by people who know what’s best”, and consultation consists of telling us, “This is what is going to be done.” When you say that it is not such a good idea, the response is that it is all decided. If my noble friend can change that culture, it would make it so much easier to make progress.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I fear that I have trodden too widely. This is not a debate about me personally—God forbid. Nor is it about the wider culture that my noble friend asserts exists. I have heard that said by others and I am conscious of it, and as a relatively new Leader of your Lordships’ House, as I said, I am extremely concerned that every Member of this House feels involved and engaged with all that is happening. To repeat my opening remarks, which were personal rather than from my draft, this before all else is a place where democratic work has to be done. Therefore, the role of Peers and Members should be pre-eminent in that.

On accountability, the process is being directed not by me but by the new in-house client team, in which I will have a part as a member of the commission on the client board, and it will be required to hold the delivery authority to account for the costs it presents. As I have said, the new head of the team is aware of the need to increase capability. The costs will be presented to the programme board in the way I have described. There will be extra expertise on it. All costs will be presented to the client board composed of the two commissions. I have described the process and will not go over it again. I am conscious of the noble Baroness’s challenge, and I am sure that those who read the debate will be too.

At this point, and with these regulations, we are simply seeking to wind up the sponsor body and launch the new ship, which I hope, despite the scepticism of noble Lord, Lord Best, who also expressed hope, will take us forward in an effective way, allowing Peers and Members to feel involved when considering options that will be presented next summer and which will come before both Houses for decision at the end of the year. We are just starting this process. I submit that we should allow and support it going forward. For all the proper scepticism that some noble Lords have expressed, I think the noble Lord, Lord Newby, is right to say that, ultimately, we have to do our duty to make sure that this building is fit for purpose and for future generations. That is the challenge.

It is clear that most who have spoken and others I have spoken to are committed to ensuring that this remarkable building, which we can proudly call our place of work, is protected for future generations. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting these regulations, which will come into force on 1 January 2023, as well as in supporting the delivery authority and those involved in programme going forward. All parties are represented on the boards involved, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Best, that there should not be politicisation of the process. It is important that those from all parts of both Houses should come together to ask challenging questions and to put themselves in a position to make decisions next year.

Motion agreed.