Civil Aviation (Consumer Protection and Regulatory Reform) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Empey and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

3rd reading
Monday 20th July 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I thought we were going to end on a positive note, but the departure gate gag has probably set us back quite a bit this afternoon.

I thank the Minister for his engagement and also thank the Bill team and the Public Bill Office. On Report, he indicated to me on the record that the Government did not have power to deal with the issue of slots. Subsequently, the Minister has indicated that he would like to clarify what he believes now is the position, and he promised he would put a letter in the Library of the House to confirm that. I thank him and all his team for their engagement. It was very nice to be dealing with a Minister who knows how to be a Minister.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I also thank the Minister, in particular for the exemplary way he has engaged with those of us who are Back-Benchers and on the Cross Benches over specific issues, and how he has facilitated moving forwards. If I may inform him, I have managed to secure a meeting with the CAA tomorrow morning, thanks to his intervention. I know that those who are disabled are also greatly relieved to know the seriousness with which he took the appalling situations in which they have often found themselves when travelling. I hope that he will continue, not only in his role but also in the way he has behaved towards all of us, because that personal contact has made it very easy to have very open discussions.

Civil Aviation (Consumer Protection and Regulatory Reform) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Empey and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Report stage
Monday 13th July 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, we discussed this in Committee. It affects all of us who use aircraft on a regular basis—and, more importantly, those who fly and crew them, who live in a capsule with artificially filtered and pressurised air. Over the years, we have had examples of oil seals in engines leaking and vapour coming into the cabin, which has largely been down to either design faults or poor maintenance.

I have a close relative who works in the industry and spends his time in a cockpit. We know that, in that compressed environment, the air you breathe in can sometimes be contaminated with mineral oils, since the air is bled from the engines and pressurised, and in some cases heated, before being brought into the cabin. It is true that pilots quite frequently have a separate air supply from that of the passengers, but ultimately it all comes from the same fundamental source. The issue is contamination from these oils; they are there to help the engine, but this has the effect of breaking them down into their components, some of which can be toxic.

I am simply asking for the Secretary of State to

“conduct a review to establish responsibility for standards of air quality on civil aviation planes”.

We are now seeing longer journeys than ever, with people flying in an aircraft for 14, 15 or 16 hours. This issue is extremely important for those who earn a living in these environments and spend vast parts of their lives there. This is not a new phenomenon in industry; we have had it in mines, factories and all sorts of environments. In addition to being a location where passengers are carried, an aircraft is a location where people work. It therefore seems not unreasonable for us to pay significant and serious attention to this and ensure that we guarantee, as far as possible, the health and safety of the people who work in the industry and the rest of us who use it.

This amendment is not an unreasonable thing to ask for; it would not impose any huge burden on the Secretary of State, other than to review. We also need clear lines of responsibility. I hope the Minister can address this, because this amendment is not just about requiring a review of the health implications of long-term exposure to pressurised air. If we want to encourage people to join and use the sector, then they must be satisfied by the health and safety standards.

In proposed new subsection (2)(b), I have asked for the review to

“provide guidance for implementing a strategy for the establishment of standards of air quality on civil aviation planes”.

I think the Minister will find that that is not a burden on his department; it is a perfectly sensible and reasonable thing to do. Aircraft are places where we all spend a lot of time—some of us spend more time in them than others. If you work in one for your career, whether as a pilot or a member of the cabin crew, you are spending most of your working life in that environment, so it is not unreasonable for this to be reviewed and examined by the Secretary of State and that any necessary steps are taken. I beg to move.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I am president of the CO Research Trust. Cabin air quality is a critical issue. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Empey for the way he introduced this group, and for co-signing my amendment.

My Amendment 37 would create a statutory duty on air operators to install continuous active monitoring for carbon monoxide and volatile organic compounds in the cockpit and passenger cabins, and provide an immediate alert to the crew and direct data reporting to the Civil Aviation Authority. I thank the Minister for meeting me last week and for the very constructive and open discussion we had. I hope he can confirm that the Civil Aviation Authority has the powers to act on cabin air quality and is willing to meet to see how we can best ensure this aspect of passenger and crew safety, as we would then not need to seek to put these powers in this primary legislation.

It has been interesting to go back over some air disaster reports, as the possibility of carbon monoxide and volatile compounds seems not to have been fully considered in some instances, along with questions over the possibility of fumes in the cockpit, even when pilot hyperventilation was noted. As we become increasingly aware of the dangers of low-level carbon monoxide exposure, particularly over prolonged periods, cabin air quality is critically important. I remind the House that HEPA filters deal with viral and similar particles in recycled cabin air but do not capture gases. In any case, carbon monoxide and volatile organic compounds enter the cabin’s air intake directly from the engine turbines—in other words, before the filters deal with recycled air.

In Grand Committee, the Minister referred to the committee on toxicity reporting that normal levels of chemicals found in cabin air are not likely to be harmful. But a fume event is not a normal occurrence, and we have to take a precautionary approach. It is a mechanical failure, for which carbon monoxide is an easily detected indicator of contaminated cabin air. Operators must report and investigate any suspected leaks, but the paradox is that an operator cannot report a suspected leak of carbon monoxide without any monitoring, as the gas is colourless and odourless, which explains why carbon monoxide exposures are undetected and unreported without monitoring.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Committee stage
Friday 30th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate. Many Members perhaps do not appreciate the extent of the potential, and the length of time over which that potential could remain open.

When I was Minister for Enterprise in Belfast and represented Belfast East as an elected Member, that area had vast numbers of people suffering from asbestosis, mesothelioma, pleural plaques and so on, because it was an industrial area. We had shipbuilding, aircraft-building and electrical work, and asbestos was involved in wiring. The workforce used to play snowballs with it; that was the extent of it.

What emerged—and this is the important point, as I am sure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will understand—is that first, a lot of companies, such as Turner & Newell, a very famous company, had gone out of business and, in some cases, their insurers had gone with them because of the extent of the claims. What people need to understand, and the reason why the Northern Ireland Government got involved, is that, in some cases, the state had owned those companies at one point, so the state was the employer. Therefore, there was a direct line of liability between the client, the company and, ultimately, the state. Now, the state has owned a number of businesses on and off over the years, all over the UK. This is not confined to asbestosis or related diseases; as the noble Lord, Lord Harper, mentioned, there is the whole question of the Armed Forces, for example.

To give a sense of the spread of all this, it can take up to 30 years before a disease such as asbestosis becomes obvious, and for mesothelioma and many of these diseases, there is no cure; it is very brutal, and it can be very quick. It emerged that, when workers came home, their clothing passed the asbestos on to their spouses and children. I remember many years ago setting money aside, up to 2050, to cover potential claims arising from the state having owned parts of some companies over the years. So in the absence of any insurer or employer, the state ended up in that position.

These amendments have opened up a whole new frontier that we have to get sorted out. The risk, obviously, is that those dependants will therefore have absolutely no recompense: not only will their relative have died a pretty brutal death—as the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, knows from his experience—but they will be left destitute. This needs sorting out.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, with whom I have had conversations going back to last September. I have looked after many patients dying of mesothelioma, and it seemed to be a loophole if the chain of causation was not completely intact.

We had advice in several calls from extremely wise sources—I will not list them all—and I learned a great deal about the legal side and the Fatal Accidents Act. I have some questions for the noble and learned Lord, whom I met with yesterday. He assured me that he would be bringing forward amendments, but unfortunately, I did not see them at the time; it was only much later that they appeared in my inbox. I have not been able to go through them in detail to examine the precise wording.

The concern is that unless this is watertight, these companies will wriggle out of any type of compensation. Therefore, what is the position of coronial oversight in these cases, where perhaps even the diagnosis might be questioned by a company, and it could be difficult for a family to provide the evidence it might be demanding? One does not know. Also, what is the position regarding the life insurance policy of the individual when they have an industrial disease and there is a chain of causation? They might be eligible, one hopes, for compensation. That needs to be followed through. However, somebody could claim that in some way, the chain of causation had been broken.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

As I said when I opened my remarks, I have amendments in group 50 for that purpose, but there is an inextricable link between having knowledge about these substances and having informed consent, so we cannot compartmentalise it as easily as that. The people who are overseeing the consent of the person must also have that knowledge. The risk factors have to be made available to the patient: that is my point. Because there has not been sufficient research done on these matters, I am not convinced at this stage that the information being provided to the patient is accurate. How can it be if the research has not been done?

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, this group of amendments is about the process of information giving. The lead amendment, Amendment 39A, is about the person having an understanding.

In any process of giving information, there is no point just giving the information: broadcasting it, if you like. You have to check that the person has understood it. Usually, in clinical practice, that is done by asking the patient, “Can you tell me what you have understood from what I have just told you?” That allows the patient to repeat back. Sometimes, you find that they have not understood it at all. Sometimes, you find that they have over-understood and brought in other sources of information, and you can then deal with misinformation that comes in and that might be relevant to them. That process is behind consent. The signing of a consent form is simply verification that the process of handing over and receiving information has happened. It is not the signature that matters, it is the process.

I will deal very briefly with something that came up before lunch—