Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale (Lab)]

My Lords, I come in just after the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because I agree with a great deal of what he said. Unlike him, however, I was a great advocate for a national police force in Scotland. I have spent a lot of my professional life in the Nordic countries and they all, without exception, have a national police service. I saw no reason why Scotland could not exactly fit the same mould of an excellent national police force.

However, like a lot of other people, I have been underwhelmed by the way that the concept—I still believe in the principle—has been implemented in Scotland, but I do not believe that this is the right place or time to talk about the ills and misfortunes of Police Scotland. What I would say—and I will try to be very brief and not repeat what has been said already—is that it seems absolute folly to think of going for an amalgamation of a very professional, exceptionally efficient force like the British Transport Police, with its special expertise in anti-terrorism, which is of very great relevance right now. To try to amalgamate that with Police Scotland—even if Police Scotland was not in such a dire situation in many directions—would, at the best of times, lead to a situation of uncertainty and change. We really should not inflict this on the country. Apart from efficiencies and principles, there is also the question of the effect on the security of the country, and I really think it should be avoided at all costs.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, in his customary understated and quiet way, has introduced this proposal and, I have to say, it brings back memories of when we discussed the Scotland Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has pointed out, every concern that Members expressed at that stage has been borne out. I believe there is an overwhelming national interest in this, not simply a Scottish interest. The British Transport Police is a national police force in Great Britain. Its expertise is unique in this country. The policing requirements, training and experience of a normal, geographical, territorial constabulary are entirely different from a transport-based police force, which does a very specialist job. Policing trains, rail lines, stations and all that goes with the transport network is an entirely different discipline, requiring different training, different equipment and a completely separate constabulary—which is exactly what we have. All the reports that have been written about it have indicated that it is performing well and according to target. I understand the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, makes about the legal position and I accept that there is devolution, but there is a national interest here which, in my opinion, should overrule a simple matter of devolved matters. I ask the Minister, in his summing up, to address this.

There is an example, which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned and which I think came up in the 2016 debate. We understand that the Scottish Parliament will want a say and an interest in what is happening in Scotland—a perfectly reasonable position—and there is a way of doing this, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, pointed out, with the chief constable going not only to the Scottish Minister of Justice but perhaps the Scottish Parliament or the relevant Scottish police authority. There is a precedent for this. We had an argument in Northern Ireland over the jurisdiction of the National Crime Agency. A lot of people objected strongly to that, but the Government took the view that, because they had UK-wide responsibilities, because gangsters operated across and between islands, and because of the necessary expertise that was required, the National Crime Agency had to have a role in Northern Ireland. The argument was whether an officer of the National Crime Agency could have the powers of a constable. That was blocked for quite some time until a settlement was reached. The settlement was that the head of the National Crime Agency would go to the Policing Board and would contact the chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. They would do that as and when required, but at least annually, so that there was a clear link between what was happening in the two forces.

We raised the question in the debate in 2016 about the contracts, and we have already heard some disturbing statistics mentioned by other Members about the numbers of police officers who may not wish to transfer. The fact is, the expertise and experience is going to be lost. We had that problem when the Police Service of Northern Ireland came in and we lost enormous numbers of detectives, for example. It has taken years to get that experience back. What happens if it is the same for the British Transport Police? We have to remember—the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made the point—that, in mainland Europe, there have been a number of attacks on trains, where a terrorist gets on in one country, travels to another and the explosions and deaths occurred on the way. This is one way in which they move around their equipment and terrorist activities. I am not an expert on Police Scotland, but any territorial constabulary does not have this expertise, experience or capability. Who is going to train them? The only people who have that experience currently are the British Transport Police.

I am very much of the view that this is an ideologically driven proposal by the Scottish Government because it is the “British” Transport Police. I sincerely hope that this is not the reason but, were it to be the reason, is it any justification for putting the safety of the people of the United Kingdom at risk simply to abide by an ideological demand? The United Kingdom Government have a responsibility for national security which overrides any devolved institution. I sincerely hope that, in his reply, the Minister will agree at least to look at this and to engage with the Scottish Government to see if he can persuade them to see common sense. The UK Government and the Secretary of State for Scotland have a responsibility to ensure the security of Scotland as part of the United Kingdom—we should exercise that.

These proposals are devoid of merit in my view. There is a way out—which has been set out very clearly—that will ensure that devolution is respected; that the Scottish Government are given their place; that the Minister of Justice will have regular reports, both written and verbal, when he or she would require them; and that the policing board in Scotland and/or a committee of the Scottish Parliament should be able to call upon the chief constable of the British Transport Police if they felt it necessary. All those things could be done. We can have a win-win situation for everybody, where national security is guaranteed and the Scottish Government are given their place. That would be the way ahead and I sincerely hope that the Minister will take it upon himself to go back and ask the Scottish Government to revisit this issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

We want to make sure that a no-detriment principle is adopted throughout, so there should be no impact on parts of the United Kingdom as a consequence of this which would have to be met by those who are affected by it.

It is important to note the other issues that we need to be very clear about. The British Transport Police is a specialist constabulary, not a traditional one. It focuses on particular aspects of enforcement which are important and cannot simply be substituted by officers from other traditional constabularies. We must not lose sight of that. Any risk that there may be flight from the particular integrated elements would in itself be a problem for the overall functioning of transport policing in Scotland. There can be no diminution in the quality of the service. We also have to recognise that throughout this area there is an issue of being respectful to the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament itself, through the Smith commission and onwards, is the principal interlocutor in addressing this matter. We cannot lose sight of that fact because it is also important.

Perhaps I may be a little more bold and say that in some respects this is one of those issues where one can see the difference between a unicameral and a bicameral Parliament. Perhaps if the Scottish Parliament had a second Chamber, some of these matters might have been addressed in a slightly different way. However, that might be a little bit provocative.

Let me conclude with a quotation which I am sure will be familiar to noble Lords, but perhaps they do not necessarily know its source. When I say the name Thomas Bertram Lance, I suspect that there will be blank stares. He was the director of the Office of Management and Budget in Jimmy Carter’s presidential Administration. In 1977 he coined the maxim,

“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.


In some respects, we should always recognise the importance of that particular dictum. However, I should stress that that conclusion must be determined by the Scottish Parliament as a matter of course. It is that Parliament’s responsibility to hold to account the Scottish Government, who have moved this matter forward.

I appreciate that I have not had time to touch on all the issues raised in the debate but I hope that I have been able to give the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, some comfort in my remarks so that he will not be regretful and therefore not press his amendment to the Motion. I hope that this has been a satisfactory response to our debate.

[Lord Empey]

Perhaps I may raise one point with the noble Lord. Where is the national interest in all of this? The Scottish Parliament cannot reflect it. A programme board is made up of two halves, one half of which is the Scottish Parliament and the other the UK Government. That board cannot have a national responsibility because it is made up of one part which does not have such a responsibility. My concern in all this is that the national security interest is going to fall between two stools. I would like an assurance from the Minister that that is not the case.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I believe that I can give that assurance. The very fact that the comments made in this debate shall be summarised and transmitted very clearly to the programme board means that the views of noble Lords will not be lost. I also believe that those views represent the entire breadth of concern expressed, certainly in this instance throughout Scotland but also beyond. That must be reflected on by all those who take as their responsibility the forward movement of the British Transport Police and its future policing policy.