Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Kilclooney

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

I require clarity on this. Is it correct—or did I misunderstand the Minister’s initial statement—that he has been having meetings with the honourable Members from the other place, Creasy and McGinn, and trying to facilitate amendments to this Northern Ireland Bill about abortion and same-sex marriage?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That is what I was about to say. Just before I came into this debate today, I was part of a wider meeting with the two Members of Parliament, together with some representatives from the Labour Party. I am going to be very correct by reading out exactly what has happened, so that there is no dubiety about what I am about to say:

“We are actively considering how we can take this matter forward, reflecting as we are upon the wider considerations from the other House, to ensure the amendments are workable, recognising the clear message which we have received from the other place. We need to ensure that we do not end up with defective laws, which would not serve the interests of the people of Northern Ireland”.


We have heard, we will reflect upon that and we will act in accordance with that to ensure that we can deliver what has been passed to us by the other place.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Kilclooney

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

One of the challenges in trying to compare the schemes across these islands is that a like-for-like comparison of the various elements is hard. However, the rate of 12% is broadly the constraint within which all must operate, because that is the state aid rule. Were the NIAC to discover a particular inequity which breaches beyond that point, they would be compelled to act in that regard. However, the 12% being applicable to all should mean that there is fairness. The noble Lord should be aware that, because the earlier scheme in Northern Ireland set its returns at such an extraordinary rate—upwards of 50% —the challenge remains that any adjustment thereafter down to 12% on the basis of averages would take that 12% higher than it would otherwise be, had it been 12% at the outset. I do not wish to make any particular point about that issue, I merely note that the challenge is now to remain within the law as specified by the European state aid rules.

[Lord Kilclooney]

One of the problems with the Bill, which has already been underlined during the debate, and which the Minister has been honest enough to state himself, is that it is wrong to link rates—which is council tax in England—with this heating scheme. They are two totally separate subjects and should not be in one Bill. Should the Bill be rejected, would it then be possible to introduce urgent legislation for rates only?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is right to raise that. I dearly hope that we do not reject the Bill now because, even if we were to act with a certain degree of urgency, it would still be a delay to what we need to deliver in terms of the rates themselves. If we are unable to address the rates question in real time, we are talking about a substantial loss to the revenue of Northern Ireland.

I hope that noble Lords will recognise that the endeavours this evening have been solely for the purpose of trying to address the genuine hardships experienced by those in the scheme. The purpose of the Bill is to make sure that nobody is considered to be part of an average and that each individual is seen as such. That data will then be used to inform the development of an appropriate element of the overall bill which will then be determined and placed before noble Lords in written form, so they can see it. There is no attempt on my part to mislead the Committee or to sell noble Lords something in a poke that you cannot put your hand into.

I hope that this is adequate for my noble friend Lord Empey. I know how much effort he, and all the Northern Ireland Peers, have rightly put into this matter. It concerns them on their doorstep, but it concerns all of us in these islands. Equity, fairness and justice must be the cornerstone of any Government. I hope that we have been able to reflect this evening on what this Government can do, within the constraints of state aid rules and the wider timing question. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will be able to withdraw the amendment.

Northern Ireland Finances

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Kilclooney

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, makes an almost philosophical point about the purpose of a police force and about the fear of crime. In many respects, the best possible police force is the one that you never see because you never need to, as it works so effectively that you are safe, secure and sound without ever seeing any intervention. I stress again that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is very aware of this challenge. I do not know the answer to the noble Viscount’s specific question; if he will forgive me, I will write to him setting out the proportion of the police budget that is for front-line services.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords—

Transparency of Donations and Loans etc. (Northern Ireland Political Parties) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Kilclooney

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I thank your Lordships for their wide-ranging contributions to the discussion this afternoon. I begin by thanking noble Lords for the support for the order before us, which will establish transparency from 1 July 2017. I believe we all welcome that particular feature—we can agree on that part.

I will address the question of backdating head-on. When the then Secretary of State consulted the political parties in Northern Ireland, he asked them when they wished the order to commence. In response, the parties themselves were quite explicit. The Alliance Party, as we have heard, wished to see the order backdated to 1 January. The DUP and the UUP both explicitly wanted it to be a forward order from the point at which it was agreed in 2017. The SDLP and Sinn Fein did not address this specific question in their responses. It is important also to stress that since that consultation, we have received no further update from those main political parties on the backdating question. I put that as a matter of record.

On the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, many of these questions cannot have been germane to the decisions of last year, for one very simple reason. Although the Electoral Commission was gathering the data at the point, it was not able—indeed, it would have been illegal—to release that data to the United Kingdom Government, whichever party held office. It could not therefore have been part of those ongoing discussions. We have heard at least one noble Lord today make reference to the details of that donation, and that is now a matter of public record. But it is a matter of public record as a consequence of other elements, not of its registration during the electoral gathering of data. It is important to stress that. That is why many of the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, fall at that point.

It is important again to recognise that we have an opportunity here in looking at establishing transparency. Right now, we are not ruling out the re-examination of the period that precedes 1 July 2017. Indeed, the draft order will allow consideration of it, once we have had an opportunity both to bed in the transparency order and to examine the details reflected therein. We will not rule anything in or out on that point. I stress that. It is important that we recognise it.

It is also important to recognise that the data has been gathered from that period in 2014—the data exists. Those who believe that it will be for ever concealed need fear nothing; there is nothing to be seen here and we can move along. In truth, that data will remain there. If it is determined that we should examine that in greater detail going forward, there is an opportunity for us to revisit this item. We should not lose sight of that fact.

As for the donations and loans that come into Northern Ireland from outside, from the southern part of the island of Ireland, I assure both the noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord Bew, that there will be full transparency of those donations and loans. There must be—there can be nothing but that. That is why, again in relation to Irish citizens, the prescribed condition is that at the time of making a donation to a Northern Ireland recipient, the individual must be eligible to obtain one of the following documents: an Irish passport, a certificate of nationality or a certificate of naturalisation. There will be a full gathering of all the data of moneys coming into the electoral process in Northern Ireland. It is important that we recognise what that means.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

We just heard a definition of “certain Irish citizens”. Does that definition apply to Irish citizens in the United States of America? Let us be fair, when the IRA was active, it was not the southern Irish who gave it the most finance; Irish citizens in the United States of America were the major financers of the IRA terrorist regime. I hope that such people in the United States will not be able to finance elections in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, for his intervention. Again, I stress this point. As a frequent visitor to North America, I have discovered many people who invoke their affinity to the homeland. I have met many Scots—who may indeed be fourth or fifth-generation Scots—who proudly wear their tartan as frequently as they possibly can. I do not fault that; I celebrate it. That is true for citizens of whichever homeland might be in question.

However, in terms of their rights and abilities to donate money to Northern Ireland, they must hold a valid Irish passport—not an Irish passport held by their grandparents, which might entitle them to play for Ireland—or a certificate of nationality or naturalisation. The order does not allow someone simply to invoke Irish heritage to be able to donate. One would hope that the transparency revealed by the order will help us to be attentive to the risks raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney. If any failings become apparent as the data is gathered, the Electoral Commission will be able to draw those to our attention and they can be examined in the cold, hard light of day. That will be very important.

The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, made a number of important context-setting remarks, which I endorse. We are at a delicate time and there is no better time for transparency than right now. There should be no escape from that transparency. As many noble Lords have heard me say more than once, we need to establish a sustainable Executive in Northern Ireland. I believe that the order will go some way to ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland have the utmost confidence in the electoral process. The order is right and timely.

I recognise that the issue of backdating will remain sensitive. If, on consideration of the data as it is gathered, ascertained and seen, there are deemed to be issues that need to be examined further, the Government will consider them at that point. We are ruling nothing in and nothing out. On that basis, I commend the order to the House.