Human Medicines (Amendment Relating to Original Pack Dispensing) (England and Wales and Scotland) Regulations 2023

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Monday 24th July 2023 Grand Committee

Before this important debate is opened, I hope I have set out what we have done and the rationale behind amending the HMRs to enable original-pack dispensing and the whole-pack dispensing of valproate. I look forward to what I know will be an informed and constructive debate.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to raise a point. I was intrigued when reading the title of these regulations that they are for England, Wales and Scotland, but they do not include Northern Ireland. While the regulations are designed to increase patient safety and create efficiencies in the pharmacy sector—I agree with all that and think we can all subscribe to it—I would be grateful if the Minister could tell the Committee whether a decision has been made not to apply them to Northern Ireland, whether is it the case that we have no power in this Parliament to apply them to Northern Ireland, whether the Northern Ireland Assembly has any power in this area, or whether, despite what the Minister said in outlining potently and clearly the reasons for these changes, this is something that no elected representative in Northern Ireland, here or in Stormont, has any power over. I would be grateful for clarification.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, I start with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. Reading the Explanatory Memorandum, it was curious that in paragraph 10.2 we are told that the consultation was carried out by all the United Kingdom authorities, including

“the Department of Health in Northern Ireland”

yet the regulations clearly state

“England and Wales and Scotland”.

This does not surprise me. We are dealing with two instruments on the same day, one of them Northern Ireland-only and one England, Wales and Scotland-only.

I was curious about the answer on the Northern Ireland instrument, which is that we would need primary legislation, so it is easier to regulate tobacco products in Northern Ireland than it is in England, Wales and Scotland. I hope the reverse does not apply here, and that Northern Ireland is not included because some kind of legislative barrier means that they would find it harder than we would to regulate something which, on the substance of it, seems eminently sensible. Many people outside here might be surprised that pharmacists did not already have some discretion over how they dispense, given that packs are quite often in odd numbers. Having dealt with the scope point, again, the substance of it seems entirely sensible.

This must be a pre-recess present, as it is rare that people bring before us regulations which are good for patients, pharmacists and GPs. It is not only that everybody wins from the change being promoted; the Government have managed to get a “two for the price of one” by incorporating another change, which I know has come up. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and others have campaigned for some time to improve the information given to women who are prescribed sodium valproate. So here we are: we are making two sensible changes in one instrument, and the Government should be congratulated on that.

For once, we have an impact assessment. We have four pages of regulation and 40 pages of impact assessment. My heart always sinks when I see a huge impact assessment but this one was really good. Whoever prepared it should be congratulated. There are lots of really good facts and figures about how prescribing works in the United Kingdom to help support the case, so I thought it was very well worked out. The fact that savings were identified independently for patients, GPs and pharmacists was extremely helpful in trying to assess the impact of the regulations. It highlighted that there is a potential increase in drug costs but that that is far outweighed by the savings that all those other constituencies make.

I would be interested in the Minister’s reaction to one number in it that surprised me. The impact assessment said that the cost of an e-consultation that would be saved—I assume it is for some sort of repeat prescribing —was £1.40. That is a very precise amount, but less than the saving from a patient going to the pharmacist to pick up their drugs. That figure surprised me because it felt low. I would expect a greater saving from reducing the number of e-consultations for people being represcribed drugs. Again, I am curious about where that came from.

I thought the model of trying to price out where the savings are, in a sort of piecework way, was extremely helpful, down to the 45p that will be saved by assistants in pharmacies not spending 90 seconds on splitting packs. That is super precise, but it is the kind of data that we want, and which can be tested to really understand how you are making savings all through the chain.

The other numbers that came out, that were just fascinating, were on the spread of prescriptions of paracetamol. There were two prescriptions for 10,000 paracetamol in there that were checked and found to be correct, which did surprise me. Even more surprising than the two prescriptions for 10,000 were two prescriptions for 1,009 paracetamol each. 1,009 is a very large prime number, so there is no “so many per day”; you cannot divide it by anything to get anything else. I assume that is a mistake, and that they meant to write 1,000 or 100 and stuck a nine on the end, because that is the only way I can think of that any GP would ever prescribe a large prime number of paracetamol.

I welcome more impact assessments like this with fun numbers in them, as they are extraordinarily helpful on a Monday before we head off for our break. More substantively, I genuinely hope that we will see more innovation such as this around prescribing and dispensing, because this is one of the areas that we have talked about a lot with the Minister. If we are to see improvements in primary care, we have to look for the kinds of efficiencies that benefit patients and make everything quicker and easier for the patient, but also make it more cost-efficient, because there are savings to be made that can in turn be ploughed back into the new enhanced services that we want to get from our pharmacists.

Again, as a substantive point, the general sustainability of community pharmacies is a problem. They are not getting the kind of income they need to continue to be present in all our communities. We see that in the closure rates; there are hundreds closing every year. As we look at changes such as this—the Minister talked about things such as the hub and spoke model—we have to bear in mind all the time that if we are making savings and are able to put those savings back into community pharmacies, that will be essential if we are to continue to have the kind of network that we need for the Minister’s ambitious plans.

This is a very welcome development. It is great to get two for the price of one; reducing the risks to pregnant women from sodium valproate is very welcome, but in terms of the scale of the dispensing operation, it is the 10% change that will potentially have a significant impact. As I say, I hope the Minister can commit that savings made through this will go back into that community pharmacy network that we all depend on.