Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Judd

Tuesday 28th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, in what is an understandably contentious and partly ideological debate about the recreational use of motor vehicles on unsurfaced routes in the countryside, particularly inside national parks, my noble friend’s proposal seeks to place a duty on the Government to assess the burdens and costs caused by the use of mechanically propelled vehicles on unsealed rights of way. Presupposing that the review would conclude that motor vehicle use gives rise to a burden and cost, the clause would give powers to alleviate these but would not seek any assessment of any possible benefits, or seek to weight burdens and cost against such potential benefits.

I have to say that I have considerable sympathy with the genuine concerns of my noble friend and others about the problems that can arise from the recreational use of motor vehicles on unsealed roads. Like the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and others, I think that my noble friend is right to raise it today. Furthermore, I agree that this issue needs to be tackled and some means of resolution to it found. The Government’s published response to the Joint Committee’s report of pre-legislative scrutiny on the Bill said as much, but recognised that this Bill was not the right mechanism for doing it.

The issue of recreational off-road motor vehicle use is a complex, emotive and contentious one where one person’s pleasurable pastime is anathema to another. Research conducted on byways open to all traffic—admittedly, some years ago in 2005, although I am not aware of there being a significant change—found that although there are some acute cases of damage by recreational motor vehicle use in hot-spot areas, some of which my noble friend and I discussed earlier today, there was no evidence of widespread damage to the byway network from motor vehicles. The research found that 85% of byways open to all traffic in England carried either light traffic, at an average of 0.6 motor vehicles per day, or moderate traffic, at an average of 5.0 motor vehicles per day. Not all damage to unsealed roads and tracks is caused by the recreational use of motor vehicles. The research found that 62% of byway traffic is due to land management and dwelling access and just 38% is due to recreation. In addition, it found that 70% of byways were without any drainage. Much of the damage is due to a combination of farm vehicles, water erosion and poor maintenance.

I must also say that there is good evidence that the use of unsealed roads during organised motoring events, such as hill climbs, puts significant amounts of money into rural economies. There are about 150 hill climb events around the country every year, with over 12,000 participants. The motorcycle club trials in the south-west alone are estimated to bring about £120,000 to the local economy. Some groups of motor vehicle users engage in volunteer activities to repair and maintain unsealed tracks, which I think is something that we would all want to encourage.

It is our contention that the most appropriate way to review policy on the recreational off-road use of motor vehicles is for it to be based on the stakeholder working group model and, in answer to my noble friend Lady Parminter, such a group will be established as soon as possible after the passing of the Bill. Despite my noble friend Lord Bradshaw’s scepticism, I point out that the stakeholder working group approach has proved to be successful, as demonstrated by the consensus in the face of diametrically opposing positions over the rights of way reforms package, of which the clauses in the Bill form the major part. This has resulted in agreement being arrived at through discussion and negotiation.

[Lord Judd]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. If he is advocating the working group approach, in learning from the last experience, does he envisage that that group might be given a time limit by which it is expected to report?

[Lord De Mauley]

I was just coming to the noble Lord’s earlier question on timing in a moment.

My noble friend asked what would happen if there was no consensus between the pro-vehicle and anti-vehicle groups. Clearly, consensus would be the preferred outcome but of course we recognise that ultimately this may not prove possible. Even without consensus, at least all the viable policy options will have been properly explored and evaluated by stakeholders, enabling Ministers to make better informed decisions on which proposals to take forward.

On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, the original stakeholder working group took 18 months to reach its conclusions and there is no reason why we should not set a similar timeframe for another. I am grateful to have my noble friend Lord Jopling’s support for this route. Within such a group, recognised experts can explore all the viable possibilities and their likely consequences. Solutions arrived at in this way, based on agreement and mutual interest, are likely to result in less conflict and reduce the need for enforcement.

My noble friend’s proposed new clause would create new regulation, which may not prove necessary after the issue has been properly analysed and discussed by the stakeholder working group and other stakeholders. Furthermore, subsection (3) of his proposed new clause contains a power to adopt some sort of measure to remove public rights of way by regulations. We believe that this would be an inappropriate use of delegated legislation and does not recognise that the best solutions to problems are often those that do not resort to legislation.

I am happy to have further discussions with my noble friend between now and Report but, on the basis of what I have said today, I hope that he will agree to withdraw his amendment.

Horsemeat and Food Fraud

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Judd

Monday 11th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My noble friend makes an important point and I agree with her. I can add to my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. Phenylbutazone, known as bute, is a commonly used veterinary product and is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. Bute is not approved for use in food-producing animals because it is not known to be safe for human consumption. An animal that has been treated with bute is not permitted to enter the food chain.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, is this whole sad saga not an exemplary indication that if we are to look to the well-being of the British people, we must put all our efforts into effectively working together with the people and Governments of Europe to resolve issues that can be resolved only on a basis wider than our own national frontiers?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I could not have put it better myself and, as I explained, my right honourable friend has been in touch not only with the European Commissioner today but with Ministers from the various other European member states involved. It is extremely important that we collaborate very closely with them.

Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Judd

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I will be very happy to do that.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I hope that it will not embarrass the Minister if I say that in his peroration there was no difference between us. As somebody who joined the cadet force at 14, I am very much in favour of those who are considering an armed services career being able to prepare for it while enjoying the opportunities that this presents. I have no difficulties with that. However, we want to be certain that before people get into a situation that will take them into conflict zones, they can make an informed choice. We need to make sure that we have belt and braces on that, so that they will not feel in any way pressurised or expected to stay on and are able to make a balanced judgment. I hope that the Minister will be reassured by me that there is no difference between us on this, except that I want to see a really convincing arrangement.

I will dwell for a moment on the remarks by my noble friends. I have great admiration for the consistent work that they have done for the armed services, and for the great knowledge that they bring to these matters. I make the point again that while of course very imaginative work is done at Harrogate—nobody would question that—the issue is about how far what is done at Harrogate helps young recruits to keep up with what is happening in society as a whole. I find a paradox here. My noble friend is second to nobody in arguing for improving secondary education, and for making sure that, where secondary education is failing youngsters who are not getting qualifications and do not feel that education is relevant, a lot of imagination on both sides of the House goes into how this can be tackled. Should we not take the opportunity in the armed services to be leaders in this respect rather than just saying that this has worked in the past? We should be determined that none of our youngsters will be at a disadvantage when they come out and make sure that the new opportunities becoming available to the wider community in vocational and other education are also available to them.

Finally, I drew attention in an intervention on an earlier amendment to the fact that things have moved on by light years from the time when I was a Minister in defence. Again, I have nothing but admiration for those who have made this possible. However, we have to measure it against what is happening in society as a whole, and make sure that while there is an improvement in the armed services, the improvement measures up to the changes in society. When we read of the problems of suicide and so on among young people, there is a tremendously significant issue to be faced. If one is to do research into the mental problems of some youngsters that result from being in the armed services—obviously not the majority, but a significant number—it is no good just looking at the immediate effects; one must look at the longer span and at what damage may have been done to people in later life by experiences earlier on.

Having said that, of course I will listen very carefully to what the Minister and his colleagues have to say. I hope that equally they will listen to the voice of concern. It is a voice of concern that some of us are expressing, not hostility, and I hope similarly that it will be understood that I have no option in the convention of how Committees in this Room take place but to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Judd

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

Before the Minister sits down, I have one observation. I speak as someone who has been chief executive of an organisation that, from time to time, participated in vigils. Could we take this opportunity to suggest—

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I respectfully draw the noble Lord’s attention to the rules on Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, with respect, I rose as the Minister was concluding and before she sat down.

[Lord De Mauley]

I am sorry but that is not what I am referring to. I am referring to the rule about not speaking more than once to an amendment.

[Lord Judd]

I thought it was possible to seek clarification from a Minister during their wind-up speech. The point on which I seek clarification is whether it would be wise, at some point, to meet those who organise vigils to suggest to them that counterproductivity in campaigning does not help their cause.