Outcome of the EU Referendum
Lord Cormack Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As I have already said, clearly it is very important that Parliament has a role in this process, but at this time I am not able to specify what that role is.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that an enormous responsibility lies on the shoulders of the members of the Conservative Party in this country? They will be choosing not only a leader of the party but effectively a Prime Minister. Therefore, is it not crucial that they take into account the qualities of those who may be on offer, bearing in mind that we need a steadying hand on the tiller and someone who has the gift of statesmanship, and that the gifts of demagogy are not necessarily the same as the attributes of statesmanship?
Government and Parliament
Lord Cormack Excerpts(8 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who brings a wealth of experience of Parliament from different aspects. I begin, as many others have, by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, on the calm, moderate, sensitive and sensible way in which she introduced her Motion. What has been remarkable about this debate is that there is an emerging consensus. It has not been put into specific words—I will try to make an attempt at that.
We are dealing with the implicit tension in a system where the Executive are drawn from the legislature and then expect the legislature to be their creature. This has been a tendency under Governments of all parties—the Labour Government, the present Government, the coalition Government. One sees the way in which successive Governments try to deal with this subject and the excessive payroll vote in the House of Commons by those who find themselves politically emasculated and those who are very ambitious, who are always a little reluctant to cross swords with the masters of the day. We see it specifically in the background to today’s debate.
I have enormous and genuine regard and respect for my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, but his appointment was a transgression of the balance that should exist between the Executive and the legislature. It was the Executive who told my noble friend to sort out your Lordships’ House. He came forward with a number of proposals based on his great knowledge and came to a conclusion with which, apart from the legislative aspect, many of us could have a degree of sympathy—namely, that our powers should certainly not be removed but perhaps, in respect of statutory instruments, should be to a degree curtailed. We also have to recognise that this comes in the wake of a specific event and, as the Commons committee put it very succinctly,
“there was in fact no constitutional crisis arising from the defeat of the Tax Credits measure”.
But the Government made one. Subsequently, the Government decided not to persist with the tax credits measure—a very sensible move, in my opinion.
We have to recognise these things and to try to come to a sensible, balanced and moderate conclusion. I respectfully suggest to your Lordships’ House that we take on the implicit—and some explicit—suggestions of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and set up a Burns-type committee with a strictly defined remit and timetable to look at the whole issue of secondary legislation, particularly in the light of the apposite and telling comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. I thought that he made an exceptionally splendid speech. That committee could report back to your Lordships’ House and, following that, I would myself very much like to see a proper Joint Committee of both Houses looking at the way in which secondary legislation is dealt with both in the other place and here.
The most encouraging remark this afternoon was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, when she paid a degree of respect to the Salisbury convention. We have to recognise that our recent problems—the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said that we have never been in this situation before with a Conservative Government—are exacerbated by the disproportionate representation of Liberal Democrat Peers. I say to them, many of whom I count among my good friends, that they recognise that too. They might even consider not putting more than 50 Members in the Division Lobby at any one time. That would go a long way to dealing with many of the problems.
Above all, we must remember that no rules have been broken. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, made an excellent speech today. It was her Motion that was carried and it did not transgress anything. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde mutters sotto voce, “Of course it did”. No, it did not, because if we did what he wanted we would have a power to amend statutory legislation, and she was merely saying, “Take a bit more time”. That is all she was saying and that would have been very sensible. We also have to remember that no legislation was lost in the previous Session.
In conclusion, hard cases make very bad law, as we all know. It is very wrong to consider introducing legislation to change perceived transgressions when there was no actual transgression. I think there is an emerging, calming consensus, thanks to the excellent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. Let us look at these things in a calm, reflective light. Let us give to a committee of your Lordships’ House a particular remit and timescale, and then let us get together with our colleagues in another place to try to ensure that secondary legislation, which should never include Henry VIII clauses, is properly examined in both Houses and is capable of amendment in both.
House of Lords: Domestic Committees
Lord Cormack Excerpts(8 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, always makes very pertinent and constructive suggestions, and we have had a very good example of that this afternoon. I begin, as have others, by thanking my noble friend the Leader of the House for initiating the debate and for the manner in which she did so, and of course I particularly thank my noble friend Lady Shephard of Northwold, who gave us an exemplary précis of her report. It was clear and concise, and it illustrated the underlying wisdom with which she and her colleagues approached a very difficult task. She was quite right in interpreting my vigorous nods as indicating that the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber, which I have the honour to chair, produced a very good turnout for her meeting, and there was a great degree of consensus in welcoming the report and the good sense of its recommendations.
One problem with your Lordships’ House is that how it operates is a bit of a mystery. I often think of those words of Churchill in a very different context: it is a riddle wrapped up in an enigma. I feel it is important that we shine some light not just on what we do but on how we do it, and perhaps I may give a specific example. A few months ago, we suddenly noticed ladies and gentlemen with cameras walking around the place. I lost count of the number of times I was asked, “How did this come about?”. Indeed, the gentlemen with cameras and the producers came to the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber for what was an extremely constructive meeting. I make no criticism of the fact that the decision was taken, but many Members of your Lordships’ House were in ignorance of it. That in itself illustrates a certain fault line in the way in which things are decided. I believe that the recommendations of my noble friend Lady Shephard of Northwold and her committee would help very much in that regard.
Before I make a few general comments, I would like to make two specific ones. First, I do not want to go down the road of primary legislation, and am glad that my noble friend Lady Shephard does not want to either. If that is necessary to change the title of Chairman of Committees, then I think we should put that to one side. We can always have a rider that says, “The Chairman of Committees, who will act as Senior Deputy Speaker”—that can easily be done and does not need legislation. The last thing we want to do is to give the impression that we are going in for navel-gazing legislation at a time when the public’s mind is on rather more important things.
The second specific point is this. I had the great honour to be chairman of the Speaker’s Advisory Committee on Works of Art in another place for some 14 years. I did my three years on the Works of Art Committee here under the chairmanship of the late lamented, much-respected Lord Luke and then in the initial meetings taken by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, who is doing an excellent job. I believe that the recommendation in the report that this should be an advisory committee to the Lord Speaker has a great deal to commend it, not least because when people with a great knowledge and interest in a subject such as works of art are appointed, it is a pity if their time is limited to three years. On an advisory committee, that would not necessarily apply. Therefore, I welcome that recommendation very warmly.
My noble friend Lady Shephard, in her admirable introduction, referred to tensions. There are, of course, tensions in this House and in another place, which stem from the single simple fact that, in our system, the Executive are drawn from the legislature. So there are tensions between Front and Back Benches on both sides of the House, very apparent at the moment in various ways but I will not amplify on that, and between the two sides. One finds that especially in another place—the elected House; the superior House—although it does spill over here a bit. It is crucial that we recognise that, just as we recognise how important it is that our two Houses should work more closely together. I endorse everything that my noble friend Lord Fowler said in that context, and very much hope that if we do adopt these recommendations, which I hope we will, they will lead to a greater understanding between the two Houses and a greater understanding of the need and importance of common services—my noble friend Lord Fowler referred to the Library specifically in that context.
It is very sad indeed that not only the mechanism of your Lordships’ House but what it exists for and what it does are not sufficiently known in another place. The more that we can work together through Joint Committees, and the more that we can understand each other’s procedures, the better it is for parliamentary government. The better it is also for the principal purpose of Parliament, which is to hold the Government to account. We have said in different debates recently that it is the Government who are accountable to Parliament and not the other way round. That is of fundamental importance.
While it is, of course, necessary to have the usual channels—I was part of them myself alongside my noble friend Lady Shephard for some years and it was a very agreeable experience—I always remember the famous Enoch Powell definition of the usual channels as being the most polluted waterways in Europe. That does not of course apply to the wonderful distilled water in the usual channels in your Lordships’ House, but it is important that too much power should not be exercised by the Executive or the opposition Front Bench, directly or indirectly, in the way in which committees are chosen. In another place—this is since I left—they have shown us that the election of chairmen and members of Select Committees has not brought the House of Commons crashing down. It would be sensible, if we are to have these more representative committees, if there were at least elections within the party groups deciding who should serve on them—I commend that particularly to my noble friend the Leader of the House.
I often think, as I am sure do other noble Lords, of the 18th century and Dunning’s Motion in the other place that,
“the influence of the Crown has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished”.
That applies to the Executive in 2016. Our structure of governance has an important role in ensuring that we are a vibrant House with a real contribution to make to the legislative process. We can do this more effectively if there is greater understanding across the House of the way in which we operate and greater support for it.
I hope that from today’s debate we will move forward towards implementation, but we have to take into account points made not only by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who preceded me, but by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, who made a characteristically wise speech indicating that there are t’s to be crossed and i’s to be dotted as we work out precisely how we do this. However, my noble friend and her committee have given us an admirable blueprint. It is incumbent on us all to do whatever we can to ensure that it is properly and constructively implemented, because—and I go back to the title of the group that I have the honour to chair—this way lies the creation of an even more effective second Chamber, and that is what we should all be about.
Regional Museums
Lord Cormack Excerpts(8 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, is the Minister convinced that the regional museums—
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I am most grateful. In the Autumn Statement, the Chancellor referred to cuts in the heritage and arts fields as being a false economy. That was a splendid statement and we are all extremely grateful for it, and for the settlements that were announced. But does my noble friend agree that, unless some aid is given to local authorities, that statement will come to sound hollow? It really is crucial that we do not lose some of the brightest and best of our smaller museums which are scattered around the country.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Cormack referred to the comprehensive spending review and how departmental spend on museums was ring-fenced. He also referred to some of the smaller regional museums. This is why we are holding the museums review as part of The Culture White Paper.
Student Loans: Muslim Students
Lord Cormack Excerpts(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank the noble Lord for his comments and add my congratulations on this important occasion. As I said, we want to ensure that all young people who wish, and have the ability, to go to university have the access to do so. That is why we are looking forward on this and we would be the first Government to introduce such a product.
Lord Cormack (Con)
But, my Lords, those who do not want to go into the Navy could benefit from a simple one or two-clause Bill. I cannot for the life of me see why we are delaying on that.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I am sure that I shall see shrugs and groans, but I repeat that the Government understand the strength of feeling. We had an extremely high level of responses to the consultation and continue to work on developing this product. We are looking for a suitable vehicle by which to introduce it through primary legislation.
European Council
Lord Cormack Excerpts(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
No, I am afraid I do not agree with the noble Lord’s description of who benefits most, Europe or us, from the relationship. I shall not take up time rattling through all the statistics, but I say this to the noble Lord: in the end, it is about what is of greater benefit to all of us—to the UK and to the rest of Europe. As a trading bloc, we all benefit from the UK being in the European Union. It is not just about how we benefit in this country—although we do. As for the noble Lord’s questions about sovereignty, I refer him to what I said to my noble friend Lord Lawson. I really do disagree with what he says about that.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, as we begin four months of campaigning, should we not just gently reflect that the most publicly apparent achievement of eight years of amusing, dynamic, flamboyant leadership in London has been gridlock?
European Union: United Kingdom Renegotiation
Lord Cormack Excerpts(8 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, as is clear from the exchanges today, and yesterday in another place, many parliamentarians want to play a vigorous part in the forthcoming referendum campaign. Can the Minister guarantee that the timetable of the two Houses will be arranged so that there are not impossible clashes, and there is a proper opportunity for parliamentarians on both sides to conduct an elevated and proper campaign?
Strathclyde Review
Lord Cormack Excerpts(9 years ago)
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Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, it is always a privilege to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. She brings great experience and wisdom to all the debates in which she takes part. I echo what she said about her noble friend Lady Bowles, who made a notable maiden speech. I also echo her perceptive and truly appreciative remarks about my noble friend Lord Strathclyde and the work he has put into what is certainly a thoughtful and constructive report. However, it is not the last word. I am grateful to the Leader of the House for ensuring that this is a “take note” debate and that we can all reflect on what is said in it.
We have to begin by recognising that this debate has come about because of a paradox. Rarely has there been a more popular vote in the country, as far as the House of Lords is concerned, than the one that took place on 26 October; and rarely has there been a greater change of policy on the part of a Government as a result of the vote. I recognise that, even though I voted enthusiastically in the other Lobby. The Labour constitutionalists, as I call them, and noble Lords in other parts of the House thought that this was a step too far. However, because of the enormous financial cost involved, it was understandable that the Government reacted—but I believe that they overreacted.
It is very interesting that wherever you sit in this House you are conditioned by the position of your party. Position lends difference to the view. I well remember that in another place I fulminated—sometimes from the Front Bench as well as from the Back—against some of the changes of procedure to the House of Commons introduced by the Labour Government. I deplored Programme Motions; I deplored the proliferation of what we called Henry VIII clauses on skeleton Bills; I deplored deferred Divisions; and I very much hoped that when my party came into government those things would go. I even said from the Front Bench that they would go—but of course I was not then in a position to do anything about it. But some of those who had made promises became members of, first, the coalition Government and then the Conservative Government and felt it inconvenient to carry them out because all of those changes were helpful to the Executive. This is really what it is all about.
The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, referred to this in a whimsical way. I almost thought that he was going to quote Corporal Jones from “Dad’s Army”—“They don’t like it up ‘em”. The fact is that Governments do not “like it up ‘em”—which is why we are in this position today.
Having said all that, we do have a real problem: what should this House do about, and what should its powers be over, important legislation with financial implications—secondary legislation particularly in this case? My noble friend Lord Strathclyde has pointed the way. It is important that we follow some of his suggestions but address them in a manner in which the House of Commons, the other place, has to learn to behave: with more robust independence when it comes to secondary legislation.
I hope that as a result of my noble friend’s report there will be a realisation on the part of government that skeleton Bills should become a thing of the past. Governments are not there to create Christmas trees on which Ministers then hang balls. I hope, therefore, that following today’s “take note” debate there will be a discussion in government. I also hope that a Joint Committee of both Houses will be established to look at the whole issue of secondary legislation and that it will take on board the wise advice given a few moments ago by my noble friend Lord Naseby. We cannot stay where we are—we have to have clarification—but we have to preserve the position of this House, to which I am passionately devoted, to have a real role in legislation while never subverting the superiority, in legislative terms, of the other place, the elected House.
So let us go forward from here having taken note of this sagacious and helpful report. Let us have a Joint Committee of both Houses; let the Government realise that they were largely responsible for the debacle on 26 October. My position then was very like that of my noble friend Lord Lawson, who said that he was determined to vote as he did—as we both did—but that he had considerable sympathy with the points being made by those who were going to vote in another direction. We have had our lesson, I hope. Let us now move forward constructively so that this House’s position in our country’s legislature is properly recognised and confirmed, so that the supremacy of the Commons is not challenged but legislation, both primary and secondary, is thoroughly scrutinised.
Tourism
Lord Cormack Excerpts(9 years ago)
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The Earl of Courtown
I think that what the noble Lord is trying to say is how important it is that English tourism has a strong voice. However, this is not a merger. VisitEngland is already part of the British Tourist Authority, which trades as VisitBritain and VisitEngland. All we are doing is clarifying governance arrangements and lines of accountability with the BTA. This will ensure that there is clarity of direction, and will drive efficiency and effectiveness.
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, we do treat tourism extremely seriously, as was made apparent in the recent spending review. DCMS takes 1% of spending but contributes a sixth to the UK economy. We must also remember that employment in the UK tourism industry has increased from 2.66 million to 2.81 million jobs; that is almost twice the rate of non-tourist-related industries. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said about where tourism’s natural home is, and must admit that I feel it is in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, at a time when the cathedrals and parish churches of this country, some of our greatest tourist attractions, are very much in the news, could my noble friend spare a moment to give thanks for all those volunteers without whom many of our tourist attractions, including those owned by the National Trust, could not properly function?
The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right in what he says on one of his most important subjects—he continually refers to the cathedrals and churches. He is right to congratulate the volunteer work done by so many people for no recompense whatsoever but for the sheer love of looking after these great areas.
House of Lords: Strathclyde Review
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
Like the noble Baroness, and as I have already said, I feel very strongly and care passionately about this House having the right to scrutinise and challenge the Government and to do what it is here to do as far as primary and secondary legislation, and policy more generally, are concerned. I welcome what she said about my noble friend’s report.
However, by her contribution she has also illustrated what I am trying to say to the House. I do not want to debate the substance of the policy, because we are talking now about procedures. Back in October, the noble Baroness was at pains to tell the House that her amendment was not a fatal Motion but that it would allow the Government to think again. But it was never established in fact that what she was doing did not amount to a fatal Motion—we were in disagreement about it. There is no definition of these things in the Companion. We have a choice: we either withhold our consent or we give our consent. It was not possible for this House, using the method that the noble Baroness chose, to ask the Government or the House of Commons to think again, because we do not have that facility. We either approve or we do not.
If the noble Baroness is arguing for this House to be able to ask the House of Commons to think again, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, in his paper, is suggesting a way which would provide the very thing that the noble Baroness is arguing for today and argued for back in October.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, I am sure the House would wish to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Richard, but it is the turn of the Conservative Benches.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am most grateful. I am sure we are all grateful to my noble friend for what she has said, but I would ask her two things. First, it is right that we should have a full and extensive debate. However, as this report has been produced on the eve of the Christmas Recess, can we have a week or two after we come back where we can talk together informally, across the House, and then have a well-informed debate? Secondly, can that debate be informed by the fact that it is the Government who are answerable to Parliament—not the other way round—and by the fact that we are in this mess largely because of the appallingly inefficient way in which the other place deals with secondary legislation? It is therefore crucial—I ask my noble friend to talk to her colleagues in Cabinet about this—that the other place also debates this matter in detail, so that we have a more satisfactory balance in the way both Houses look at secondary legislation.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As my noble friend may not have had an opportunity to study my noble friend Lord Strathclyde’s report, he might not yet have spotted that it includes a reference to the other place and its role in secondary legislation. My right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons is also making a Statement today in the other place about this same topic.
As for when we will schedule the debate in January, clearly we will have to consider the timetabling of it alongside other matters when we return. However, my main commitment to this House is that there will be a substantial debate; it will be in government time; and we will do so early in the new year.