European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2017
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
I see that there are not too many volunteers for this one. This order appears to have had a difficult gestation period. It has gone through all kinds of hurdles and has failed at each one. That gives rise to a number of questions.
When I first saw that this order was on our forthcoming business, my noble friend Lord Foulkes suddenly thought that it was a great opportunity to raise the question of why a telescope on St Helena is not being funded by this organisation, as that might also ensure that we can improve travel and transport links there. However, on detailed reading I advised him that there was not really an opportunity to do that here, although I said that I would mention it. I hope that the noble Baroness could make some reference to that.
As the noble Baroness said in her introduction, we joined the convention in 2002, which of course was signed in 1962. According to the briefing from the Foreign Office—I express my appreciation to officials there, who helped me with the background and briefing on this—we signed the protocol in 2012, although it was given effect by this order in 2009, which of course is the beginning of the journey for this matter. I do not quite understand why the protocol was acceded to in 2012 when it was given effect by that order in 2009.
The error that the Minister referred to, namely that the 2009 order was defective as it did not give clear immunities in accordance with the protocol that we signed up to, was not discovered until June 2014. This error must have some implications; the individuals involved must have raised the issue, because they would have been working with people who were employed in accordance with the overall protocol. Therefore, when this error was discovered, how many people were affected by it, and is there any liability on the United Kingdom Government for this error? I assume that there may well be, if two people have been working in the United Kingdom. However, it may be more extensive; it may be that some people, this error being no fault of theirs, may be seeking some sort of recompense. I would like to be clear about that for the future.
I was also slightly concerned that the noble Baroness referred to the numbers that could potentially be affected. Of around 40, we know that at least 38 are based overseas in Germany and Chile. These are not huge numbers—I would have thought that we would be able to be a little more specific about the numbers involved and how we will put right this error.
On the general principle—the Minister referred to this—the briefing says:
“Providing privileges and immunities to International Organisations is standard practice where the Organisations need these privileges and immunities to operate and function effectively”.
That is accepted and I understand that, particularly if that is a requirement of the original protocol. It continues:
“The UK only agrees to confer privileges and immunities on International Organisations to the extent necessary for the proper functioning of the Organisation”.
What does that mean? How do we measure that? Why have we determined that certain individuals will benefit from the requirements of the protocol? This would be a classic episode of “Yes Minister”, I suspect, in terms of understanding the language and the errors and the fact that this 2009 order has been brought before the House three times and still failed. It would help in terms of general policy to understand exactly how these things operate. I hope the Minister will forgive me for this direct approach and will be able to answer.
Baroness Goldie
As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, predicted, there is hardly a rush of enthusiastic interrogatories to deal with on this issue. I thank him for his insightful and helpful contribution to the debate. The amendment order simply corrects a number of errors in the order it replaces and aligns domestic law with the obligations we have made to the European partners, with which we share an endeavour to increase our knowledge of space.
The UK’s commitment to the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere remains unchanged. We remain committed to strengthening our position as a world leader in astronomy and space exploration. Belonging to this organisation brings with it opportunities from which British companies and our scientists, academics, astronomers and astronauts of the future are well placed to benefit.
I will try to deal with some of the points which the noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised. He mentioned the nature of the journey to this point. I will be quite candid. The journey has involved a road with a number of potholes, and a certain degree of stumbling into and over the potholes has taken place. Why has it taken three years since the order was laid? While the order was laid in 2009, the UK did not complete payment of all the joining fees until 2010 and thereafter we went through necessary internal processes to ensure that we acceded to the protocol. This process took two years as it was given low priority because it was likely to impact on very few UK nationals.
As an aside, the noble Lord mentioned his noble friend Lord Foulkes and the matter of St Helena. I have no information on that but I undertake to look into his question and to write to him. I should make clear that the current telescopic facilities are based in Chile.
The noble Lord also raised the important issue of why the staff of the ESO need privileges and immunities. It is a legitimate question and important we endeavour to answer it. The UK is obliged to confer privileges and immunities by virtue of its accession to the convention establishing the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere and the protocol on the privileges and immunities of that organisation. Privileges and immunities are important for the organisation to conduct its official activities in the UK, irrespective of whether it has a physical presence in the UK. In particular, tax immunities ensure that partner contributions are directed to the construction and operation of the project and not into tax revenue.
The other issue that the noble Lord raised in that connection—and again it is an important one—was its impact and the personnel affected. As I said, my understanding is that of the 40 identified personnel, 38 work in Chile and two have worked or sometimes work within the UK.
I make it clear that UK nationals or permanent residents working for the ESO overseas are not liable to pay income tax in the UK on emoluments received as an officer of the organisation. However, if UK nationals or permanent residents working for the ESO overseas have income from a second employment, business, or financial investments in the UK, they will be liable for UK tax on such income on the same basis as anyone else working abroad.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised a pertinent point about the potential impact for persons now covered by the order. I make clear that Her Majesty’s Government are not legally financially liable because the amendment order does not include a retrospective effect. In other words, it does not say that the Government will refund income tax payments. However, we will be sympathetic to the concerns of the organisation or the individuals affected if we are approached.
Baroness Goldie
The noble Lord poses a question that he knows I cannot possibly answer. I have not even given a commitment. I have merely, I hope, indicated a note of empathy in respect of the concern which he has raised.
The noble Lord was also concerned about whether this amendment order was the complete solution given the rather troubled history of where we have been and how we got there. Certainly, it is an important step forward in implementing the protocol in respect of officers with British nationality or UK permanent residence to the extent permitted by the Act of Parliament under which it is made. The Act does not permit us to confer by order the social security exemptions on any British nationals or UK permanent residents, other than the director-general. That is why I anticipated what the noble Lord might be interested in and obtained the specific information from the officials, which I was able to include in my speech. I hope that has reassured him.
I hope I have managed to answer the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. In conclusion, this Government remain committed to the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere and its ambitious programme to make scientific discoveries and look deeper into space than we have ever managed to do before. This will clearly be for the benefit not just of this generation but for many generations to come. I hope my comments have allayed any apprehensions that the noble Lord had.
Human Rights: Kashmir
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Baroness Goldie
Both India and Pakistan are important international partners of the United Kingdom. Our long-standing position is that it is for those countries to find a lasting resolution to the situation in Kashmir, taking into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is not for the United Kingdom to prescribe a solution or act as a mediator.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
Picking up the Minister’s last point, it is extremely worrying that free speech is being severely curtailed in Kashmir at the moment, so it will be extremely difficult to understand the wishes of the people there. What steps have the Government taken to raise with the Indian Government the suppression of free speech and a free press in Kashmir?
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for his important question. Prime Minister Modi has underlined the importance of fundamental rights and these are enshrined in the Indian constitution. These include freedom of faith and speech and equality of all citizens. We will continue to work collaboratively with Prime Minister Modi’s Government on a range of issues, including the promotion and protection of fundamental human rights such as freedom of expression and freedom of religious expression.
Aleppo
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Minister for repeating the Statement. The conditions in eastern Aleppo are simply horrific. Of the 275,000 people trapped there, 100,000 are children, hiding underground in absolutely appalling conditions and facing imminent starvation. There is no doubt that Russia is permitting war crimes. I welcome the unequivocal Statement from Mr Ellwood in the other place that the United Kingdom will do everything possible to ensure that the individuals responsible for these crimes will be held to account in the months and years ahead. Can the noble Baroness outline the steps we are taking to secure the evidence that will ensure a successful prosecution?
However, in terms of the humanitarian crisis that we face, we do not have weeks and months. The situation is absolutely desperate. In June, the then Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, said:
“While air drops are complex, costly and risky, they are now the last resort to relieve human suffering across … besieged areas”.
Today, Mr Ellwood said that he would not rule out air drops as a last resort. Surely, from what we have heard described in recent days, we are at that point. The conditions are such that we must be at that point.
The Minister in the other place said that the UK will redouble efforts through all diplomatic means within and outside the United Nations to deliver humanitarian support. What is the noble Baroness’s assessment of our ability to build and maintain sufficient support across all our allies to put pressure on Russia and the Assad regime to allow humanitarian aid and access?
In view of the urgency that we face, will she confirm that the Government will bring back to Parliament a formal Statement as a matter of urgency on all the options being considered and on what progress has been made?
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord opposite for his questions and, indeed, for his sentiments, which I think strike a chord with everyone in the Chamber. I shall deal first with the issue of war crimes, which he raised. Where it is clear that the Assad regime has committed terrible atrocities in Syria, and where there are allegations of war crimes, we are very clear that they should be investigated. We continue to make the case for the situation in Syria to be referred to the International Criminal Court.
On the second issue that the noble Lord raised, regarding the potential option of air drops, we have always been very clear that our priority is the protection of civilians in Syria, who are already facing an appalling humanitarian situation. The noble Lord opposite will understand that air drops are an imperfect humanitarian option by their very nature, and that they can be more dangerous and harder to implement successfully than ground access. So there are major challenges with any military option, including air drops, and we would need to consider these carefully in close consultation with our existing partners, with whom we are working closely. The noble Lord will be aware that the United Kingdom is one of 10 partners, all working together to try to improve the situation in Syria.
On the noble Lord’s final point, I am sure that my colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will have noted his request. I can only reassure him that I will make sure that that request is reaffirmed to the department.
Saudi Arabia: Migrant Workers
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Baroness Goldie
I know that the noble Baroness echoes a sentiment which will strike a chord with all of us. I suggest that it is for third countries and their Governments to determine how best to protect the interests of their citizens, whether at home or abroad. As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, the United Kingdom Government can try to assist the position of British nationals. That is what we endeavour to do by consular engagement and by engagement with the British embassy in Riyadh. At the end of the day, when it comes to internal issues about whether workers are due money, that is a matter for Saudi Arabian law, and they need to involve suitably qualified lawyers to give advice.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
The noble Baroness may recall that the previous Government withdrew core funding from the UN’s International Labour Organization. Does not this case—and others—underline that we should review that decision and work with other global organisations, such as the International Trade Union Confederation, to protect workers wherever they are?
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for his question. Saudi Arabia, as he is aware, is a member of the International Labour Organization, as is the United Kingdom. Indeed, as long ago as 1975, the ILO adopted a migrant workers recommendation which specifically detailed provisions to protect migrant workers, including enjoyment of effective equality of opportunity and treatment with nationals of the member country. I would say to the noble Lord that this is a locus for the United Nations and the International Labour Organization within the UN, and I am sure that all member states would be interested in looking at it.
India: UK Ex-Servicemen
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Baroness Goldie
Yes, and I thank the noble Lord for making a very important point. Our thoughts are with the men and their families. These men come from all parts of the United Kingdom, from communities familiar to many of us. As the noble Lord will be aware, the British Government, through the Diplomatic Service, have been engaging consistently with the Indian authorities both diplomatically to facilitate a swift process and to support the men while in detention. The noble Lord may be aware that the case called in the court yesterday, and was continued until 21 November. I understand that only initial arguments were presented and that no substantive decision was made.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, of course, our thoughts are with those men and their families. They were carrying out work on behalf of all of us in protecting international shipping. My understanding is that BEIS and other departments give licence, and £450 million is spent each year on defending ships from piracy. In the light of the situation in India, what advice is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office giving to people who are thinking of undertaking this work?
Baroness Goldie
The noble Lord will understand that we have to accept the right of individuals to make free choices about what they do and where they work. Clearly, the activity in which these six British nationals were engaged is a risk area. Therefore, while the Foreign and Commonwealth Office cannot intervene in the individual decisions of people as to what they seek to do, it urges careful consideration before any decisions are made.
Zimbabwe
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Baroness Goldie
The noble Lord will be aware that there is a sanctions embargo against Zimbabwe, and active sanctions against President Mugabe, his wife, Grace, and the company Zimbabwe Defence Industries. The UK is party to that EU embargo. As I said in my earlier response to the noble Lord on the Cross Benches, the United Kingdom Government cannot interfere with the internal fiscal or economic policy of Zimbabwe; all we can do is urge and make the case for overdue reform.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, the last time we addressed this subject, the noble Baroness described the human rights situation in Zimbabwe as “stable but fragile”. Does she not think that the current situation, with the prospect of hyperinflation, will affect that analysis? Does she have a view on what we can do to strengthen sanctions to protect the human rights and dignity of people in Zimbabwe?
Baroness Goldie
There is concern, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, is right to articulate it. The United Kingdom Government can only offer to support the entitlement of the citizens of Zimbabwe to have their human rights respected, as we do regularly and with insistence. I said earlier that this Government continue to invest in civil society programmes to improve transparency, advocacy and human rights. The UK regularly calls, both bilaterally and in partnership with others, for an end to abuses and the restoration of internationally accepted standards.
Israel: Children in Military Custody
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Baroness for her contribution. It is the case, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that some progress has been made. That is not to say that there do not remain profound concerns about areas where there can be, and there is a distinct need for, improvement. We have welcomed the steps taken to date but we have called for further measures, including the mandatory use of the audio-visual recording of interrogations, a reduction in the use of single hand ties and more consistently informing detainees of their legal rights.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I appreciate the response that the Minister has given. It is the same response that Mr Tobias Ellwood gave in January, when he undertook in the Westminster Hall debate that he would raise his concerns during his visit in February. From January till now, just what progress has been made on those 40 areas of recommendation? What has happened since January and his visit in February?
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for his question. He may be aware that the desire of the United Kingdom to send a delegation of UK lawyers to visit in February in order to assess progress was rendered impossible because of the unwillingness on the part of the Israeli Ministry for Foreign Affairs to facilitate that visit. That was disappointing, and on 18 February during a visit to Israel the Minister, Tobias Ellwood, expressed his strong disappointment with Israel’s Deputy Foreign Minister at the unwillingness to host a follow-up meeting for the British lawyers. The UK has friends in Israel and among the Palestinians, but I need hardly tell this Chamber that these are deeply sensitive issues and we as a third party are doing our best to facilitate support and to encourage compliance with the two reports. We are doing our best to try to ensure that the aspects of the reports that remain unimplemented are addressed in order that the position for these Palestinian child detainees will be improved.
Syria: Aleppo Ceasefire
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Goldie
Turkey is an important ally in these matters, and that is an important relationship. All the parties to the International Syria Support Group, of which Turkey is one, are doing their best to make a contribution.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Kinnock drew attention to the dire situation in and around Aleppo, but of course there are other areas in need of urgent humanitarian help. Amnesty International has drawn attention to the 75,000 refugees trapped close to the border with Jordan after the Jordanian border was closed because of an attack. Could the Minister tell the House what steps we are taking to work with the Jordanian Government to ensure that some humanitarian aid gets through to those 75,000 people, who have had no help since August?
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord opposite for raising that point. I cannot give him a specific answer other than to confirm that Jordan is also a member of the International Syria Support Group, but I undertake to make an inquiry, and if I can elicit more information I shall write to the noble Lord.
Syria
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Goldie
As the noble Lord will be aware, there has been enduring activity, diplomacy and engagement by the United Kingdom Government, and that will continue. On the specific issue that he raises, I would observe that the Foreign Secretary issued a statement welcoming the announcement of the cessation and calling on all parties to support the deal.
In relation to air strikes, as he is aware, the United Kingdom has made air strikes against Daesh in the context of the global coalition. Our relationship with that coalition continues but, along with all parties to the coalition, we will be watching closely how the ceasefire proceeds, in the particular hope that it will remain stable and enduring so that further progress can then be made, as outlined in the agreement between the United States and Russia.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, obviously the ceasefire provides an opportunity for a political process but, as we have heard, it is also a window of opportunity to provide humanitarian aid. What immediate steps is the Minister’s department taking, with the MoD and DfID, to ensure that all NGOs, including the United Nations, are fully able to use that window of opportunity to ensure that aid is there when the roads and airspace are open?
Baroness Goldie
We have as a Government been active in our endeavours to support the provision of humanitarian aid. The noble Lord will be aware of the very extensive resource that has been allocated to that by the United Kingdom Government. We are in a sensitive and delicate period. The unanimous hope is that the ceasefire will work and continue. That is necessary to allow some form of planning for what might then be possible. I say to the noble Lord that an important component of the agreement achieved between the United States and Russia is that humanitarian access is provided, and the regime in particular has been forcefully reminded of the need to co-operate in that endeavour.
South China Sea: Territorial Claims
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Baroness Goldie
The United Kingdom has been very clear about two things: we regard that arbitral finding as legal and binding, and we expect other nations to respect and observe that ruling in the same vein. This is a time for restraint: diplomatic relations and dialogue are the way forward, rather than force and coercion. A lot of diplomatic activity is taking place. As I said in my earlier response to the noble Lord, Lord West, we respect the right of the United States to do whatever it considers appropriate in that area.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, the fact is that the Chinese President made it absolutely clear that, despite the binding ruling, China will continue with its view about its sovereignty and its economic zones. Picking up the point raised by my noble friend, irrespective of whether the Royal Navy will conduct the same exercises, will the Minister reassure the House that we are in touch with the United States of America to ensure that our interests are fully aligned with theirs?
Baroness Goldie
As has already been observed, this is a very important trading route. About half the world’s trade goes through the South China Sea, and all international powers are very alert to the significance of that navigation route. We are pursuing active diplomacy and have made clear our concerns to China. This is a time for restraint and responsibility, and it would not be wise to precipitate the raising of tensions, although we fully accept that China has to be sensitive to the situation. Land reclamation, construction or militarisation are not conducive to reducing these tensions.
Zimbabwe
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie(8 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord for his extensive observation. He makes an important point. There are justifiable concerns about human rights, governance and the political system in Zimbabwe. I reassure him that the British Government persistently and resolutely make representations to the Zimbabwean Government about our concerns, asking that the rule of law be observed and that democratic rights be respected. I should point out to the noble Lord that we have an ambassadorial presence in Harare, and that is very important. It is a necessary diplomatic conduit for the work that the British Government do—not in funding the Zimbabwean Government but, for example, in providing invaluable help for infrastructure projects by working with implementing partners and NGOs. However, at the end of the day, what other financial institutions choose to do with a foreign Government is not really under the control of the British Government.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, one thing that is clear is that the human rights situation in Zimbabwe is getting worse. There is a lot that the United Kingdom Government can do, particularly in terms of sanctions against individuals, which they currently impose on the President of Zimbabwe. Can the noble Baroness explain why the Finance Minister, Mr Chinamasa, has had that embargo removed? Why are we not exerting more leverage and using the authority that we have now to restore human rights?
Baroness Goldie
The noble Lord makes an important point about human rights. We consider the human rights situation to be stable but fragile, and, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Oates, we will continue to raise concerns about individual cases. We monitor the situation closely and are able to do so because of our embassy in Harare. We regularly call, both bilaterally and in partnership with EU member states, for an end to all abuses and for the restoration of internationally accepted human rights standards. In relation to sanctions, I reassure the noble Lord that there is an arms embargo against Zimbabwe and active sanctions against President Mugabe and his wife, Grace. That extends to travel bans and all financial dealings, and their assets in the EU are frozen.
Turkey: Judicial Services
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Baroness Goldie
I must apologise to the noble Baroness because I am not sure that I caught all of her question, but I think that she expressed concerns about Turkish nationals living here who may be returning to Turkey and the plight of other citizens of that country. We in the United Kingdom are very clear on this and have reasserted to the Turkish Government our insistence that we expect human rights to be observed, freedoms to be respected and the rule of law to be applied. This is a fluid and fast-moving situation, but it is very encouraging that the right honourable Minister for Europe and the Americas is in Turkey as we speak and is engaged with the Government. I am sure that the concerns felt by the noble Baroness will be prominent and to the forefront of the discussions taking place.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, because Turkey is our ally in terms of both NATO and the EU, a co-ordinated, positive response of engagement is vital because things are getting worse every day. What talks have been taking place with the Government of the United States as well as the Commissioner in the European Union to ensure that we make a fully co-ordinated response to Turkey?
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord for making the point. While I cannot give him any specific information, I can reassure him in a general context that all the western powers are cognisant of the situation in Turkey and clearly are being vigilant and alert to its implications. If he wishes for a more specific answer to his question, I shall write to him.
Turkey
Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Goldie
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her appointment and welcome her to the Front Bench, and I thank her for repeating the Statement. I welcome the steps that the Government have taken and their communications to the Government of Turkey, and I certainly welcome Sir Alan Duncan’s intention to visit Ankara. However, what happens next to this vital ally, partner and friend is critical. Two million UK citizens enjoy holidaying in Turkey. Will the Minister ensure that clear and speedy advice is given on an ongoing basis to those individuals and families so that they can continue to enjoy their holidays in Turkey, which is so vital to the economy of that country? As to next steps, will the Minister also reassure the House that in the necessary, ongoing discussions and dialogue, the importance of upholding the rule of law and due process will be stressed? Specifically, will they make clear representations against the reintroduction of the death penalty?
Baroness Goldie
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for his kind remarks. He has made three very important points. On the matter of the many British nationals who visit Turkey and, as he rightly identifies, are so important to the Turkish economy, there is advice available. The situation is calm. There remains the prospect of perhaps some further turbulence, but flights are returning to normal and travellers should follow the advice of both Turkey’s own local authorities, monitor travel advice, take advice from their own travel operators and, of course, continue to take advice from the FCO website.
On the issue of nationals currently in Turkey, common sense, I think, is the order of the day. Travellers should be alert to their surroundings and remain vigilant in crowded places that are popular with tourists. On the very important issue of respect for democracy and rule of law, I think the entire Chamber would echo the noble Lord’s sentiments. These are also sentiments that have been reaffirmed and re-impressed by both the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Turkey, of course, is not just a valued partner of the UK; it is a NATO ally. In that sense, the rule of law is fundamental to parts of the NATO values agenda. So, in that respect, it is clear just how much this is prized and what importance the UK sets on it, and that importance has been conveyed to Turkey.