Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Lord Collins of Highbury Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating and well-conducted debate. I have appreciated all the contributions, even those I do not agree with. I particularly want to mention the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Herbert. He and I have worked together on an all-party basis for many years in trying to influence things.

It is important sometimes to reflect on the journey we have been on and the role of legislation in that journey. The noble Lord, Lord Hannan, referred to how it has changed things. I have been around a long time—perhaps too long—and participated in many of these debates and heard concerns about legislation, whether the GRA, the equal age of consent legislation or the civil partnerships legislation. I planned my civil partnership on what I hoped would be the first day of its introduction, but sadly it got delayed by a whole year because of the actions of this House in restricting movement on civil partnerships. However, when I heard the debate on equal marriage, what was a revelation to me was that all the people who had opposed civil partnerships, including the Bishops’ Benches, were suddenly saying, “We support civil partnerships—but we aren’t happy about same-sex marriage.” Do not underestimate the role legislation has in influencing attitudes and changing behaviour; it can be really important.

I must admit that the noble Lord, Lord Moore, sort of made me jump a bit, because Section 28 was clearly legislation in reaction to, as he put it, left-wing councils and something that was not happening, as he admitted. That legislation did not change things in schools in the way that perhaps those who moved it understood. What it did do was unleash homophobic attitudes in a way you could not possibly understand. I know this from experience. Even though homosexuality was legalised in 1967, suddenly I am walking down the street and I get homophobic comments. It unleashed it for many years, but every change we have made since 1997 has had a positive effect on the British public. Now, I can talk about my husband. People respect it. Now if I go to the doctor and talk about my next of kin being my husband, it is understood and respected. Attitudes have changed immensely.

My starting point in this debate is, of course, Theresa May’s declaration in 2018. I think people accept that there should be a ban on all forms of coercive conversion practices. Theresa May described it as being urgently needed, but we have not seen anything from the Government, sadly, six years on from when it was first promised in the excellent LGBT action plan. Of course, that was after commissioning research and promising legislation in 2021. Then, in March 2022, we had a report saying the plans were dropped entirely. It was moving forward, then backward, and at the beginning of this year we had a commitment to a trans-inclusive ban.

I suspect the Minister may join with me in lamenting some of this sorry saga of being positive about change and it then being negative, but I think that it is LGBT+ people who have really paid the price for that, and for this delay, because they have not been kept safe. That is what this debate is about. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity to explain the Government’s policy on conversion practices now, because I want to understand why no draft Bill has been introduced and why the Government find it so difficult. Is this really about policy differences or are the problems about personalities? The Government should come forward with their own proposals.

I share many of the concerns that noble Lords have expressed about the Bill. There is another Bill going through this Parliament in the other end from my honourable friend Lloyd Russell-Moyle. That Bill, to ban conversion practices overall, is backed by many Members from the Conservative Party. A number of noble Lords mentioned pre-legislative scrutiny of a future Bill, to which the Government are apparently still committed. When will it get under way? When will we see it? All the questions raised in this debate deserve an answer, and we want to make progress. I hope the Minister is confident that we will be able to conduct meaningful scrutiny before the end of this Parliament and the general election.

I think that we have been too slow on this: 18 months ago, my honourable friend Anneliese Dodds, the shadow Minister for Equalities, asked whether the Government had gathered any evidence about the impact of a well-drafted ban on conversion practices on the provision of legitimate talking therapies. She asked for any evidence or statements from medical bodies suggesting any concerns that a conversion therapy ban would have a chilling effect, or that a trans-inclusive ban would put such treatments at risk. These are legitimate questions, which have been asked in this debate and which the Government have a responsibility to answer. My honourable friend did not get any answers when she asked them, and I suspect that I will not get any today.

Conversion refers to changing, not to exploring people’s real selves, including for young gay men or young lesbian women, who, from transition, have realised that they were always gay. What safeguards or principles does the Minister envisage would be introduced to prevent the acceleration through affirmation of young people into gender services, where they are experiencing conversion therapy or radical surgery? Questions have been raised, and the Government have a responsibility to give us the answers to them, particularly if they gave a very strong commitment.

We on the Labour Benches acknowledge that there are complexities, and we have a different approach. It is our job to protect the public from harm: like the BMA, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and countless other organisations, we believe that conversion practices constitute abuse. We are clear that a Bill to ban these practices must, of course, be carefully and sensitively drafted, so that it does not cover psychological support and treatment, non-directive counselling or the pastoral relationship between teachers and pupils or between religious leaders and worshippers. These are matters that legislators can work through sensibly, and I am confident that we can.

A ban would not cover quiet conversations and friendships. A ban would not cover discussions within families, which are based on the need for love and support. A ban would not—and must not—have an impact on the provision of psychological, medical and supportive services for children and young people. As I said, much more support and psychological counselling is needed, not less, and that is the very clear view from the interim Cass review that noble Lords mentioned.

On Wednesday night, I spoke to my honourable friend Lloyd Russell-Moyle at an event hosted by Mr Speaker on LGBT history. It was a fantastic event with a range of people including trans men and trans women. My honourable friend settled on “predetermined purpose”; that is what he put in his Bill. It says that, much like with false advertising, you cannot set about to change someone as that is not possible in law and to do so would be a fraud.

The words in his Bill are also clear that the intent cannot be entered into during the process of a conversation but must be predetermined. That is what we are talking about here. Lots of other points have been raised, particularly on gender, but when someone says, “You must come for this therapy because we are going to change you from being gay to straight”, it needs to be stopped, because that has a huge impact.

Other Bills have tried to focus on harm, and this is already an offence, as we have heard. However, the ability to prosecute is hard. It requires the victim to retraumatise themselves in a trial and, as we have heard in this debate, harm is often not known for a long time.

Labour believes that any ban must be carefully, tightly and clearly worded, and appropriately implemented and assessed. That should surely be par for the course for any legislation, and it must also apply to a ban on conversion practices. Because of the Russell-Moyle approach, I am confident that it is possible to deliver a ban without ending up in the quagmire in which the Government have found themselves.

We have a duty to ensure that every LGBT+ person can live their lives in dignity and free from abuse, just like anyone else. I sincerely believe, as my noble friend Lady Donaghy said, that the Bill gives us the opportunity of space to look at these issues in detail and put the challenging questions that we have raised. That is why it is important that we give it a Second Reading.