Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Carmichael
Having appeared before the hon. Gentleman’s Committee on a number of occasions, I have a small suspicion that of the various options he outlined the last one is the least attractive. As I have said, the First Sea Lord will speak for himself. I have no doubt that in making his comments he felt he was speaking in the best interests of the Navy, but as I have said, the question of contracts is to be determined by Ministers, and the Secretary of State for Defence could not be clearer in his comments in this regard.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
My right hon. Friend will understand that, as someone who lived close to Yarrows shipyard for quite a long part of my life, I have a particular attachment, and indeed affection, for the notion of shipbuilding on the Clyde. Will he accept that in the event that orders from the MOD are no longer placed, the impact will be not just on jobs directly associated with the construction of ships, but on all those companies on both banks of the Clyde that supply goods and services to BAE Systems?
Mr Carmichael
Indeed, that is the case. Like my right hon. and learned Friend, I have my own family associations with shipbuilding on the Clyde, and I think we are probably typical of many in Scotland today. The truth of the matter is that if that business had been lost, which of course would have been a consequence of a yes vote, the implications would have been profound not just for those who are directly employed in the shipyards, but for the supply chain right across Scotland.
Murder of Lee Rigby
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady raises an important point. As the Leader of the Opposition said, the pain that the family will feel on reading this report and reliving everything should be uppermost in our minds. A police liaison team is still working with the family, and they should know that whatever meetings they want, they can ask for and they will get.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
I hope that my right hon. Friend will excuse me for returning to the issue of resources. My quick calculation is that a sum of £130 million over two years amounts to an increase of about 3%. We are facing an unprecedented set of challenges, a matter that is publicly acknowledged not only by the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary but by the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police—and, indeed, the heads of the agencies themselves.
Can we really be satisfied that an increase of the kind that my right hon. Friend has mentioned—which is obviously welcome—will be adequate to deal with a problem that is not static and is almost certainly likely to increase in the years to come? Will he at least consider a review, at every possible stage, of the resources available to those who have the primary responsibility for guarding our security?
The Prime Minister
I say to my right hon. and learned Friend, for whom I have great respect, that this is under permanent review. This is a discussion that can be had at any time if there are particular pressures. In the spending review in 2013 we put up spending on the intelligence agencies by 3.4%, at a time when other Departments were, on average, being cut by 2.77% in real terms, on top of the 19% average departmental reduction over the previous four years. They have had a much more generous spending settlement and quite rightly so.
There is also the issue—we discussed this in the National Security Council—of how much to spend on counter-intelligence and how much to spend on counter-terrorism. The argument is often made that it is time to reduce the spend on counter-terrorism. My own view is that that is not the case and that the pressures on counter-terrorism are still very great. As the Home Secretary said yesterday, the threat is greater than for many years, so we need to keep the focus on that part of the work.
European Council
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I look forward to the mayor of Calais appearing in front of the right hon. Gentleman’s Select Committee. It is very important that they are having those discussions. We are working with the French at every level to make sure we do not go back to the bad old days of Sangatte, but instead improve security around Calais. That is why the NATO fence is being erected even as we speak and why those conversations continue. I look forward to seeing how the Committee gets on tomorrow.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
May I endorse my right hon. Friend’s remarks about Afghanistan and those who gave their lives there? On this occasion, however, could we spare a thought for those who have survived, but who none the less have been subject to grievous injury?
Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the most recent Ipsos MORI poll shows that support for the United Kingdom staying in Europe has risen to a 23-year high—56% for and 36% against? Does he believe that that will be of some comfort to him not only in forging alliances in Europe in order to bring about the reform we all think is appropriate, but in helping him combat UKIP and anyone else who wants to bring Britain out unilaterally?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right in what he says about the injured who have returned from Afghanistan. Members on both sides of the House now need to make a commitment that Governments for many years to come will look after these people and make sure that we continue to funnel the LIBOR fines into defence and veterans’ charities, as we have been doing.
On the issue of European reform, the most popular and the right approach is not to accept the question of in/out today on the current terms, but to negotiate better terms and then give the British people the choice. That is the right approach.
Iraq: Coalition Against ISIL
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
I, too, remember the speech made by Robin Cook in 2003. I remember it with great admiration and perhaps a little emotion, not least, of course, because he resigned from the Government as a result of his views and joined the rest of us who voted against them in the Lobby that evening.
This is not, however, 2003. It is an entirely different set of circumstances, an important feature of which is the fact that we would be responding to a request made by the lawful Government of Syria. [Hon. Members: “Iraq.”] I meant Iraq; I have Syria on the brain and will come back to it in a moment. The very existence of the Government of Iraq and, indeed, the country for which they are responsible is undoubtedly at stake. In my view, there is a legal basis—it has been referred to by many of those who have already spoken—for what we are being asked to endorse today.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Given that air strikes alone will not achieve victory over ISIS, who has the plans and the determination to win on the ground now?
Sir Menzies Campbell
That, I hope, is the product of the alliance that the United States, through President Obama and the efforts of Secretary of State John Kerry, have been putting together. An illustration of that commitment is the fact that five countries in the region have joined in to support the air strikes carried out so far,
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Sir Menzies Campbell
No, I am afraid that I must move on.
The circumstances faced by Iraq are such that its very survival is at stake. It is important that we exercise a degree of responsibility in the matter. Although it is not the sole cause of the current circumstances in Iraq, there is no doubt that the military action in which we joined with the United States against Saddam Hussein has been a major contributor to the circumstances in which we find ourselves.
Let me deal with the question of Syria. I am content that were there to be a motion to the effect that we should take similar action in Syria, there exists a proper and sound legal basis for such action. Indeed, the very factors that justify intervention in Iraq would be of equal weight in relation to Syria. Those are, to put it briefly, the barbarism that is being displayed, and the fact that regional stability is being heavily undermined. Let us remind ourselves that such undermining of stability has an impact on countries such as Jordan, a close ally that would be a necessary component were there ever to be a global settlement for peace in the middle east.
We must also recognise that the Arab countries that have joined in have exercised a degree of responsibility in doing so. In many cases, they are taking on elements in their own countries that are opposed. How would any other country, faced with that decision, feel in the event that the motion that we are debating were not passed? It has been suggested that we need a United Nations resolution before we can embark on any action of the kind that is proposed, or indeed on similar action in relation to Syria. We must accept the reality that the prospect of a United Nations Security Council resolution is totally remote. Indeed, even to put such a resolution on the table would be a wholly pointless exercise because of the attitude that would undoubtedly be taken by Russia and possibly also by China.
The language that has been used so far has been about destruction, but I am not sure that it is possible to destroy an ideology. I am not sure that it is possible to destroy a cult of the kind that now exercises such malign influence. One thing that we most certainly can do is to adopt a policy of containment and deterrence. To do that, we have to degrade its military capability and create circumstances in which any return to barbarism will be met by swift and effective action. I think we would do best to agree that we are not likely to embark on a successful process of destruction, but that we can have an effective doctrine of deterrence and containment.
There is no parallel between today’s debate and the debate on Iraq in 2003, but there is a parallel with Kosovo. When Kosovo was an issue, with considerations similar to those that we are discussing—not least ethnic cleansing—the international community was able to deal with the situation without a resolution. A lot has been said about the long term, but we do not have that luxury.
NATO Summit
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman makes the important point that, on occasions, there have been concerns that some Gulf states have supported players—whether in Syria, Libya or elsewhere—with extremist views. We have repeatedly said how unwise we think that is. There are discussions between those Gulf states but, as I have said many times with respect to our domestic arrangements, Britain is clear that we need to oppose not only violent extremists, but the extremist narrative.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
May I associate myself and my right hon. and hon. Friends with the tributes that have been paid to Jim Dobbin? He was proud to be a Labour MP and he was proud to be a Scot, and those things are not mutually inconsistent, despite some of the observations made elsewhere in the kingdom about loyalty.
The attempt to obtain a 2% level of expenditure within 10 years can be regarded only as a rather gentle target, so is my right hon. Friend satisfied that it is strong enough? The real question that will be in the minds of many hon. Members is this: exactly where do we stand on action with regard to ISIS? Does he agree that it is right to recognise that the best that can be done in relation to an ideology such as that of ISIS is to degrade it as far as possible, but that it would be entirely unrealistic to believe that political, economic or military means would destroy it?
The Prime Minister
I agree very much with what my right hon. and learned Friend says about Jim Dobbin. As a passionate Scot, a passionate Brit and a passionate Labour MP, he showed that you can be all three of those things, and we could replace the word “Labour” with “Conservative” or “Liberal Democrat” and say absolutely the same thing.
What is different about this time is that the 2% spending pledge has never before been included in a leaders declaration in quite the same way, and there has never been a time scale for it. I particularly pick out that it puts in its sights those who are below 2%, saying that they need to halt any further decline in their defence spending. I think that is a powerful statement.
On ISIL, of course one has to degrade an ideology. However, when it comes to terrorists who have taken control of a state’s institutions, meaning that they have land, oil, money and weapons, we should be more ambitious and say that the right people to run the state of Iraq are the Iraqi Government and the right people to run Syria are an inclusive Syrian Government, and that there should be no place in those states for these extreme terrorists.
EU Council, Security and Middle East
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I greatly respect the right hon. Gentleman, and I know he has considerable experience of dealing with Iran, not least from when he was Foreign Secretary. As I have said here before, we are cautiously re-engaging with Iran—he knows about the steps already taken—and that will lead over time, I am sure, to the reopening of embassies and all the rest of it, but we should do so very cautiously, knowing Iran’s history and what it has done, including support for terrorist organisations. Clearly, what is most required in Iraq is an Iraqi Government who represent all of its people, and those that have been most excluded recently have been the Sunni population, but we need, of course, the assistance of Iraq and other countries in making sure this comes about.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
May I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend’s statement was rather more nuanced than some of the reports have suggested over the weekend? May I take him directly to the question of the exclusion of United Kingdom nationals from the United Kingdom? Is he aware that there is very substantial doubt as to whether that would be legal, not least, of course, because of our international obligations in treaties and conventions? In addition, hardly anything has been said about the practicality of such a proposal. Who would decide, would any such suspension be without limit of time, and, indeed, would any appeal be appropriate? In those circumstances, a great deal of work needs to be done on the proposal he has outlined.
The Prime Minister
I respect the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the point he makes, and he is absolutely right: we should not be tearing up international obligations in order to bring this about. The point I am making is that, as we stand today, we are able to deal with foreign nationals who want to return to Britain—they can be excluded—and we can deal with dual nationals because we can take away their British passport without rendering them stateless, but we have the example, for instance, of someone today, a British citizen, who says that he wants to come back to Britain in order to wreak havoc in our country and who has pledged allegiance to another state. So therefore there is a gap that needs to be properly discussed, properly identified and properly dealt with.
Ukraine (Flight MH17) and Gaza
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
First, I join the hon. Lady in sending our condolences to Richard Mayne’s family and friends for their loss.
On what other European leaders have said, we discussed Ukraine and sanctions last week, but I believe that, since then, things have changed and things need to change. On what I agreed with Chancellor Merkel and President Hollande, there is now a willingness to consider a package of sanctions that includes important measures in what I have called the third tier of sanctions, and obviously the Dutch Prime Minister, having suffered this huge loss to his country, will want to engage directly in this debate as well. It will not be easy, because we will have to agree everything together in the European Council, but I think the whole world can see what happens when there is a Russian leader who has been fomenting unrest in another country and potentially supplying the weapons that could have brought down this plane. It is a toxic mixture that has led to this tragedy, and if we do not do something, it could happen again.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
My right hon. Friend asks what the reaction should be here, were we to be subject to such rocket attacks as those sustained by Israel. As a Member of Parliament, I would ask—indeed, demand—that our Government respond in a proportionate way, consistent with international law and with proper regard for the safety of innocent men, women and children. With all the sophisticated military technology at its disposal, can Israel really protect itself only by the kind of operations that the Secretary-General of the United Nations has called “atrocious”?
The Prime Minister
Of course, we would urge every country to act in a way that is proportionate and consistent with international law. We believe in those norms of international law and uphold them ourselves, but it is worth putting ourselves for a minute in the shoes of the Israeli people who have suffered these rocket attacks and who quite sensibly ask their Government to take action to try to prevent them in the future.
European Council
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
The most significant thing that happened is that all these countries, in one way or another, signed up to the Spitzenkandidat—the leading candidate—process. The European political families, starting with the socialists, decided to appoint a candidate they wanted for the Commission; the EPP and the liberals followed suit; and leader after leader found themselves strapped to a conveyor belt of their own making which they could not get off—that is what happened. We did not do that, which is why we rightly opposed this to the end.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
But may I encourage the Prime Minister to return to the issue of reform, because long after the indignation is spent, reform will be fundamental to the future of the European Union and our relationship with it? Notwithstanding his disappointment, the Prime Minister has been very pragmatic in the past two or three days, particularly with his telephone call of congratulation to Mr Juncker. Much can be done to reform Europe without treaty change, so is it not time for the rigorous application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, which do not need treaty change, only political will?
The Prime Minister
I agree with a lot of what my right hon. and learned Friend has said. There are changes that can be made in Europe without treaty change, but my view is that to secure the sort of renegotiation that Britain needs, we should be accompanying some of the treaty changes that the eurozone, in time, will need with treaty changes that will also suit Britain, in the way that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) pointed out—as a country that wants to be in the single market but does not want to join the euro.
European Council and Nuclear Security Summit
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman, who served as Foreign Secretary, makes a very good point. There was never an option of sending gunboats. There is not some military answer to this. The only approach is a considered, long-term, tough and predictable one so that Russia knows that if it goes further into eastern Ukraine there will be very significant economic consequences. He makes an important point about countries that have given up their nuclear weapons not fearing that they have made the wrong decision, because there were countries, such as Kazakhstan, represented at the conference in The Hague which made the point that they had taken those steps too. That only serves to underline the importance of taking a long-term and tough approach to Russia on this.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that an unresolved question is whether the annexation of Crimea was opportunistic or part of a wider strategy? Against the possibility of the latter, is it not now time to reaffirm the transatlantic alliance, enhance defence and political co-operation in Europe and strengthen the capabilities of NATO?
Tributes to Nelson Mandela
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
Rather like the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), I feel that everything that should have been said has been said—most notably, perhaps, by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), whom I am glad to call my friend, albeit outside the Chamber. After all, we were once in the same party together.
It is inevitable on these occasions that we speak, as it were, through the prism of our own recollections. Of course, Nelson Mandela created many iconic images, but one in particular sticks in my mind, and it has already been mentioned. Let me put it in context. I had not really understood the absurdity of apartheid in sport until 1965, when, at the White City stadium in London, two teams from South Africa were competing in the annual athletics championships, a black team wearing black blazers and a white team wearing green blazers. They were able to compete against each other at the White City stadium in London, but they could not compete against each other in Cape Town or Johannesburg. If I had any doubts about the absurdity of apartheid in sport, they were most certainly extinguished on that occasion.
As we have heard, sport in South Africa was a deeply divisive issue. When in 1995, at the rugby world cup final, Nelson Mandela wore a South African rugby shirt to present the winner’s trophy to the South African captain, he made an extraordinary gesture. Indeed, it goes a little further than we have heard today, because Mandela wore the No. 6, which was the jersey number of the white South African captain. I shall finish now, because so many hon. Members wish to speak, but by that simple act he turned what was divisive into something that was a force for unity. Surely on that occasion there was no better way to express his ambition for his country.