Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 21st February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that our parliamentary processes for dealing with statutory instruments are unsatisfactory—in particular, that we cannot amend them. But is not the remedy in Parliament’s hands? If we were a little bolder and rejected some statutory instruments, it would not be difficult for the Government to reintroduce them in an amended form. The amendment could be very slight. It seems that statutory instruments are necessary, particularly when we are dealing with all those that result from our leaving the European Union. Therefore, we need to look very carefully at the parliamentary process for dealing with them. It seems, as the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, said at Question Time, that this is in Parliament’s hands. We could be bolder and achieve the objective of amending statutory instruments by rejecting some of them.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, it is important to realise that statutory instruments are a very useful way of dealing with particular situations, but of course it is extremely important that the powers to make these instruments are properly scrutinised and narrow. As the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Dinton, said on the previous day this Bill was being considered, in his day parliamentary counsel would say, “What do you want to use this for?” If the reply was, “I’m not sure”, they would say, “Well, in that case I’m not drafting it until you know what it is for”.

Privileges and Conduct

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

She was the investigator and complaints were made about the nature of the investigation. She submitted to the Committee for Privileges a document containing that information. That was submitted to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for his consideration—the committee was not going to take one side or the other. He then submitted a supplementary comment on that also. The last person we heard speak on this was the noble Lord, Lord Lester. The commissioner was not asked to speak after that. We were firmly of the opinion that the commissioner’s report had to be taken on the basis of what she said, and the committee had the duty of deciding, on the balance of probabilities, whether that was a reasonable decision in the circumstances or to reject it. We also had the knowledge that, if we rejected the commissioner’s report, we were in fact saying that the complainant’s account of the matter was a complete lie. The evidence she submitted on paper was detailed and circumstantial, and the commissioner went over it with her.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord will know that I intervene with great reluctance. Is he saying that, if the feeling of the House is that, for whatever reason, the process was unfair, nevertheless we are compelled by the rules to do an injustice to an individual?

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Not at all. I am saying that the process is perfectly fair. The commissioner gave the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and the complainant exactly the same balance. I do not accept for a moment that this House has approved unfair rules and only discovered that today. These rules have been in position for a long time, and you have to bear in mind that the complainant made a complaint on the basis of these rules. As far as I can see, there is nothing unfair about the rules, so long as both sides get the full account of what the other side has said. In my opinion, that is natural justice: that you have the full account before you. Natural justice would not allow, for example, supplementary evidence to be taken by the commissioner without it being shown to the noble Lord, Lord Lester. As far as I know, there is no complaint to suggest that he was not shown every piece of paper that the commissioner had. He was given his opportunity to explain.

The process then requires the commissioner to make up her mind and submit her report to the Committee for Privileges. The committee’s only responsibility is to decide whether it accepts the report. As far as I can see, nothing has been suggested about the facts of the matter on which she reported which can be shown to be wrong. In the recondite speeches we have heard on the subject of procedure—

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Friday 23rd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I want to just say, in support of what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has said, that my understanding is that this Bill has received a Second Reading. Therefore, it is inappropriate to propose amendments that have the effect of destroying the Bill, because that is trying to reverse a decision that the House has already taken.

The other thing that I want to say is that my noble friend Lord Butler and I have worked together for years and years, but I dispute very much the idea that the only way in which this House could indicate in a very strong manner that it supports the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is by an absurd procedure that requires two Members of this House to record their vote in opposition to what they really believe. I think that there would be something very seriously wrong with the procedures of this House if there were no other ways in which the House could show its support of the Bill.

The other empirical observation that I want to add is that, if you want to make progress on the whole, it does not help you to interrupt the people who are opposing you.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

Before the noble Lord sits down, can I just say in reply that, if he reads the newspapers tomorrow or listens to “Yesterday in Parliament”, he will hear that the way in which the House demonstrated that it wanted to support the Grocott Bill was through that Bill.