Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

I reiterate that the Government’s intention is to support eligible people suffering from this terrible disease and to start making payments as soon as humanly possible. Indeed, timing is paramount. Mesothelioma deaths are expected to peak in 2015 and we aim to have a scheme in place by April next year. I ask noble Lords to keep this in mind during today’s debate. Any delays will affect the very people we are trying to help. I hope noble Lords will forgive me for taking up time on these issues but they are critical as we consider the detail of the Bill.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

If your Lordships’ House will permit me to intervene, I do not intend to engage in debate with the Minister at this stage on any aspects of his commendable “pre-statement”, for which I thank him. It is consistent with the attitude that he has shown to this legislation and his handling of it in the course of our consideration. However, there is another matter which, as he knows, I have been discussing with the Bill team, which is not reflected in the proposed amendments on Report and which, therefore, will not be directly raised.

My concern is about the clarity of the drafting of Clause 2 and the interaction of parts of it. Without going into the detail of that, I have been in discussion and correspondence with the Bill team, and I am grateful to the Minister for allowing that to happen. We did not bottom-out our discussions about the fundamental issue but we revealed a number of things about the interaction between the draft rules and Clause 2. Before I came into the Chamber this afternoon, I got an e-mail saying that there was a recognised tension in relation to the issue of limitation between the draft rules and the current drafting of Clause 2. If the Minister is not in a position to say anything about this now, perhaps he will make time to say something on Report so that it will be on the record and will go to the other place to be considered.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I know that the noble Lord does not want me to go into detail, but I can commit to going on working with him on this issue, which is very technical. If we work out that something needs to be adjusted, we will have time to do it in the other place.

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This is wrong, unfair, illogical and insensitive. I urge noble colleagues to support the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments. In the interest of the efficient use of our time I shall do so principally by adopting the arguments that have already been advanced by my noble friends in support of them, and will seek only to reinforce one point and augment another in relation to Amendments 5 and 6.

The quotations which my noble friend Lord Howarth deployed from the ABI’s brief come from the brief that the ABI provided to some of us—in a discriminating fashion, I recollect—in anticipation of the Committee stage on 5 June. On that occasion I deployed these very same quotations; I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, had them at that stage. I made this point then, and I wish to repeat it: the ABI’s argument in relation to self-employed people seems to be, “This was a very small number of people”. I felt that that argument read that since we were leaving behind only a small number of people, we could be justified in doing so. I deployed the argument that that increased the injustice substantially and that extending the scheme to this very small number of people would have a very limited effect on the total cost of the scheme and on its administration. I also argued that it would be a deep and disproportionate injustice to leave those people behind because they were probably victims of the same negligence; they probably picked up the fibres that caused this dreadful disease in exactly the same workplaces as employed people did, but just happened to be working in them at the time. I repeat that point as there is some significant merit in it.

In relation to the group of people who are referred to in the Minister’s letter of 4 July as those who are infected by environmental or secondary exposure, there is a more compelling argument as to why these persons should be included in this scheme. It relates to the way in which public liability insurance and compulsory employers’ liability insurance—or employers’ liability compulsory insurance, which I think is its proper title—was sold historically. It may still be sold this way, but I know that it was sold in this fashion. I explored this argument in Committee—I am grateful to the Minister, who, in his characteristic fashion, addressed comprehensively in his letter those issues that he did not have a briefing to address in Committee—and I have now had it confirmed, from the information in the Minister’s letter, that it is right.

Almost invariably, employers’ liability compulsory insurance was sold in a package, with, among other things, public liability insurance. Consequently, it is invariably the case that the insurers, who carry the employers’ liability risk, also carry the public liability risk. It is the behaviour of exactly the same insurers, in either destroying their records or failing to be available to those who identified them as the insurers who carried these risks, that has caused this deep failure in the insurance market. Therefore, there is no difference in relation to the mechanism of insurance and its failure to provide compensation for people who have been exposed to environmental or secondary exposure, compared with those who were employed in the first instance.

It is almost incontrovertibly the case that were an employer to have been sued by the person who was exposed at the secondary level, that person would have been able to establish that they were owed a duty of care and that there was a direct causal connection between the exposure of their relative or loved one and their contracting the disease. Had they had somebody to sue, they would have been able to get compensation. If the employer does not exist and the insurer cannot now be found, they are in exactly the same position as the relative who was exposed to the fibres and carried them home. I made that argument, and from the way I read the very carefully worded letter from the Minister, that appears to be what his researchers have revealed: that this group of people would have been covered by public liability insurance and that almost invariably the same insurers would have carried that risk.

There is no argument, therefore, that has any merit, that those people who were in the category of secondary exposure should be excluded from this scheme. The opposite is the case. Given that exactly the same players would have been involved in the processes that caused their contracting this disease and dying from it, we should honour the experience they have had by including them in the scheme.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

My Lords, I will comment on a number of issues to which these amendments give rise—and they are very sensitive issues. Any start date is arbitrary, and there will always be people who are caught by a start date, so whether it is 2010 or 2012, there will inevitably be feelings of unfairness. However, the earlier the start date, whatever the cost—perhaps the Minister will clarify the cost, but we were told it was £119 million, and if it is 70% of that it will come to £80 million—agreeing to that concession would cause a 25% increase in the cost of this scheme. Where is the money going to come from? Will it come from a new negotiation, or from reduced benefits and compensation for those who will receive money from the scheme? That question has to be answered by the movers of the amendment.

On the issue of coverage, there are obviously concerns about the self-employed and people from the same household, but are we saying that we are going to complicate this legislation and hold it up while we have an argument about public liability insurance versus employee insurance? That would be a recipe for severe delay. The great advantage of this legislation is that we have kept it simple and we have an agreement. It is a balancing act to get to that agreement and to get the legislation through so that it benefits the people who were in employment. Once this settles down, we could consider coming back to this—I hope the Minister will do so at some stage—and look again at how we might cover the self-employed and people from the same household, but if we start that discussion now we will be here until 2015 or 2016 before we have legislation to benefit the families for whom it is intended.

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We cannot expect companies to fund cases when they have never received premiums. The proposed amendment imposes a disproportionate burden on the employer’s liability insurers, who will fund the scheme through the levy. In answer to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, employers had to have asbestos cover in their employer’s liability policies, but we are aware of no requirement for a public liability policy to cover asbestos.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My more fundamental point is that the insurers that sold employer’s liability compulsory insurance were the same insurers that sold public liability insurance to individual employers, because they were sold in a package. That was my experience when I was the Minister for employment between 2003 and 2004 when, the noble Lord will remember, there was a significant failure of the employer’s liability compulsory insurance market that had to be resolved. His letter of 5 July to me and others confirms that that is still the case, according to his research. These insurers are not separate insurers, they are the same insurers, and I suggest that the requirement to carry cover in relation to the specific risk of asbestos would have been irrelevant to public liability.

[Lord Freud]

I have just made the point that the public liability may have been bundled up with employee liability but it did not necessarily cover asbestos risk. That is the issue. If we start going into this, we are just blasting open and widening the position in a way that is very complicated and difficult to deal with under the timelines we are dealing with.

Moving to the second group about the self-employed, here the matter is not so clear-cut. Some people may appear to have been self-employed but if they are able to demonstrate when making their application that in fact they were employees, they may be eligible for a payment under the scheme. There is considerable case law amassed on this and we will ensure—I can commit to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth—that the scheme will reflect this when assessing applications.

I know it is not fashionable but I should point out that there is a technical problem with the amendment, which is cumulative, but I will not go through it. As drafted, this amendment does not work because you have to be an employee and self-employed. In our spirit of co-operation, if we wanted to take it we would adjust it, but there are good reasons in both cases why we do not want to.

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[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Wigley. When he and I put our names to the amendment, we were unaware of what the Minister would be able to achieve without the benefit that our amendment being carried by your Lordships’ House might give in strengthening his negotiating hand. I have immense respect for my noble friend and his decision not to press his amendment and I will not seek to do otherwise. However, I want to add to what has already been said in relation to this group of amendments and the principle of justice.

In one of the early sentences of his introductory speech at Second Reading, the Minister enunciated a principle that, if a person is damaged by the negligent actions of another, that person should be entitled to compensation and, therefore, justice. I paraphrase him and I am sure that I do not do justice to the eloquence of his words at the time, but I remember pointing out that there was an inconsistency between that and other recent actions of his Government in relation to health and safety law.

We all agree with that principle and, with all due respect to the arguments that can be made, I suspect that the Minister does not equate the payments from the scheme with justice. He will be comfortable at the Dispatch Box and probably will, in his characteristic style, say that he is not presenting this as justice. Justice for these people would be for an employer who is insured to sue, and 100% compensation. So we are not going to do justice. I regret that we are not going to do justice to the victims of this dreadful behaviour and of the dreadful history that followed it, not necessarily on the part of employers—which went out of business for lots of reasons—but certainly on the part of the insurance industry.

However, we have a duty to strive for justice. The Minister eloquently expressed, as he has done on a number of occasions, that this is basically a negotiation. He has negotiated on behalf of the victims in a situation where hitherto they had only statutory schemes to look to, and he is to be congratulated on his achievement. I have experience of the responsibilities he holds and know just how difficult the job is. I have congratulated him on it in the past and he gets a significant amount of deserved credit in this House for what he has achieved.

He says that his ability to improve the scheme is a function of a number of practical and realistic things: what is negotiable in the circumstances of what the market will bear; and the point at which he judges, and the insurance industry tells him, that it will be compelled to transfer the marginal cost of the scheme to British industry and thus affect competitiveness. It is also a function of the fact that he is operating in a situation where he is seeking to have the scheme funded by what he calls active insurers, which are not necessarily the insurers that historically wrote the policies that carried the risk in the first place.

I accept all that. In the debate on the previous group of amendments, my noble friend Lord McKenzie made a point that prompts my own, which is different from any that have been made in the debate. We do not doubt the Minister’s bona fides, but whether we are at the limit of his negotiating ability, or whether we can help him go a bit further towards the sort of figure that is more like justice, it would be helpful if we knew how many of the insurers with which he is negotiating are those that carried this risk in the first place and behaved in the way they did.

Until now, the Minister has deployed very adroitly the point about active insurers as opposed to those who carried the risk. However, he has done it in a very generalised way. I was not moved to interrogate him in detail until he explained, probably for the second time —I did not pay enough attention the first time—to my noble friend Lord McKenzie that when he first approached the issue, his desire was to place the burden on those insurers that underwrote the policies and risk in the first place. That implies that he must have thought that there were enough of them to carry the burden. Therefore, this cannot be an insignificant number of insurers. The inference I drew from the argument that he put forward in his contribution—which he may now regret—was that a disproportionate burden was being placed on people who were not about when the problem was being created. However, my knowledge of the Minister and of his abilities, which is growing, suggests that the opposite is the case, and that more of these insurers than we think will have to pay up.

If I had thought about this before, I might have argued for a differential levy in order to get a significantly increased amount of money, so that we could all do what we wanted to do, which was get much beyond 70%. Is the Minister in a position to help us? It may not be of any great assistance to us, although there is still Third Reading, but at some stage—I am not asking him to name and shame, although I would quite like him to—it would be interesting to know the number of insurers involved. Perhaps we could go a bit further. Could he describe the scale of this market in monetary terms, and the proportion of the market that is controlled by those companies that let this insurance market fail? We would then all have a better sense of justice and of where we should apply the burden.

I will say two more things. Unfortunately I had to leave the Grand Committee before we came to debate this issue. When I read the Official Report, I was extremely impressed by the amendment of my noble friend Lady Donaghy, which proposed adopting the idea of the incentive that the ABI deployed—which my noble friend Lord Howarth demolished and which the Minister has now abandoned—and reversing it to fix the compensation at 130% of the average, in order to incentivise the insurance companies to get their colleagues to find the policies, and to get the people who wrote them to carry the risk and burden. That is where the incentive should be in this situation.

I see that the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, is in his place. I am glad that, thus far in the debate, he has not deployed the argument of delay in relation to this legislation. I do not resent—but I do not like—the idea that those of us who have been trying to improve the legislation somehow have to step back because we may delay the point at which very deserving people can get some form of payment. I do not like it for a simple reason. The Bill was introduced in your Lordships’ House and went into Grand Committee. We are now on Report and this is the first and earliest point at which we can vote on anything in it. If the argument of delay in these circumstances is to have any merit, it means that we have to accept whatever is presented to us by the Government if it is broadly in a good area of public policy. If in future we ever have to face an argument for reform of the House of Lords, we had better not do that.