Wales Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

We have quite a strange group of amendments here but, rather than uncouple them, I would like to suggest a degree of support for the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and the question from my noble friend. We believe that our amendments, notably Amendment 29 in the next group, will achieve the same result of a better alignment between the Assembly’s legislative competence and Welsh Ministers’ executive powers. I shall save my comments on the general principle of aligning legislative and executive powers until the next grouping.

I shall address the specific issue of fishing, addressed by one of the government amendments in this group. At present, Welsh Ministers have powers to exercise fisheries functions in relation to Wales and the Welsh zone. The Welsh zone includes a zone of 12 nautical miles next to the Welsh coast and the territorial sea, which, because Ireland is to the west of most of Wales, reaches beyond that point significantly only in the south-west of Wales, on the Pembrokeshire coast. Unfortunately, the extent of Welsh Ministers’ powers do not reflect the arrangements in England and Scotland, with those Administrations having executive powers in relation to their relevant areas. My understanding is that the Welsh Government have pursued a solution to this for several years, so it is encouraging that the amendment has been brought forward.

The amendment goes some way to addressing requirements, but it requires further work to work properly. For example, as currently drafted, the amendment would permit functions under Section 5 of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act but not Section 5A, which permits functions to be exercised for “marine environmental purposes”. A number of other aspects need to be considered. It would be better if the amendment mirrored the scope of the Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer of Functions) Order 2010, which covers the sort of functions required. It would help to achieve a degree of consistency around who controls fisheries management measures. While we support the Government’s amendment on fisheries as far as it goes, we hope that further work can be done on this matter before Report to ensure that the provisions are fit for purpose.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, for bringing them forward. I am well acquainted with his burning passion in relation to these matters, which I know we have discussed many times before.

I turn to the amendments, through which the noble Lord and the noble Baroness seek to extend the common law-type powers of Welsh Ministers. I shall break off and explain what I think that means to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. The issue here is that, yes, common law grows up over a period of time, mostly, though not exclusively, from the contribution of judges—some of it would be by convention in other ways, I think. Here we are seeking to confer these types of powers on Welsh Ministers. We cannot do that by the effluxion of time, because time has not allowed that, so we are taking what is already the position in relation to the common law powers that exist for UK Ministers and saying that we believe that those types of powers should exist for Welsh Ministers. We are transposing them because we cannot build in the period of time element.

It is our view that these amendments would undermine the protection given to a very limited number of Minister of the Crown functions, which the Assembly may modify only with the consent of United Kingdom Ministers. Clause 18 is a key part of delivering the clear settlement that we are putting in place through this Bill. Ministers of the Crown and Scottish Ministers already exercise these common law-type powers. This clause would put Welsh Ministers broadly on the same footing as Ministers of the Crown and Scottish Ministers by ensuring that in future they too will be able to exercise such common law powers.

The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, asked a very fair question in relation to the royal prerogative. I am very willing to meet with him to discuss this further but, so far as we have been able to ascertain, the royal prerogative has not been conferred on Welsh Ministers. They derive their powers from transfer of function orders or under the legislation. The noble Lord probably knows more about the royal prerogative than I do; I am very happy to meet with him on this issue.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My very short and technical question is whether it is humanly possible, in any event, for prerogative powers to apply to a Parliament of the nature of the devolved Welsh Administration. As I tried to say in a contribution earlier this afternoon, the royal prerogative derives from what started off as a monarchical diktat, curbed by Coke in 1610, very largely whittled away during the Civil War, and largely defined during the First World War—the noble Lord will remember the case of the Attorney-General v De Keyser’s Royal Hotel Limited. By now, there is hardly a remnant left, but I submit that that remnant can remain only with the mother Parliament.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord jogs my memory on the Attorney-General v De Keyser’s Royal Hotel Limited which was a compulsory purchase situation. I believe that he is right and he speaks with great authority. I am always stunned by the noble Lord’s recall of these matters, without any note. I am confident that he is right on this issue, but nevertheless I am very happy to meet with the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to look at it further.

I was also asked about the transfer of powers, which we are doing by transfer of function order rather than in the Bill. I have notified noble Lords of the functions that we have identified that will be transferred to Ministers. We are consulting with the Welsh Government in case they find any more that we have missed. I do not think that is the case, but if it is we will, of course, amend the transfer of functions orders.

The noble Baroness referred to and welcomed Amendments 31 to 35, which add a number of additional fisheries management functions to the licensing functions already being transferred to Welsh Minsters. These are management functions under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967. The noble Baroness has said that she is happy with this but it could go further. I will go away and take a look at it, reflect on what she has said and come back to it on Report. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I will take up the Minister’s offer of a meeting, not that I want to add to his diary which is obviously very busy during the passage of the Bill. I know that he understands my concern about the general failure of the Bill to move us forward and provide a stronger basis for both the functions of Ministers and the operation of the National Assembly itself. I will not pursue that, because I am leading on the next amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, on 5 July, in the House of Commons, the Government promised to produce draft transfer of functions orders. Have those been produced so far—and if not, why not? Is the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, right when she says that they will be conferred functions rather than reserved functions?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this part of the Bill and specifically the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, who are seeking to broaden the definition of the Assembly’s legislative competence to include functions where consultation with a Minister of the Crown is required before modification, by virtue of paragraph 11(2) of new Schedule 7B.

Specifically in relation to the functions set out in that sub-paragraph, I should say first that they are very few. We should be clear that the great bulk of ministerial functions will be transferred by transfer of functions orders—that is the intention—but there are four here that need prior consent. I am willing to go away and look at these, but I have to say that some relate to circumstances that perhaps noble Lords have not taken account of. For example, the very porous nature of the border means that for water—noble Lords will know that we are still looking at this—the present position is that the National Assembly for Wales has some competence in relation to customers who are in England, and vice versa. Therefore, it is not quite as straightforward as it might be in Scotland, with respect to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. That said, I will have another look at the functions as they are set out and be in a position to better inform noble Lords as to the precise thinking behind these.

However, in relation to, I think, Amendment 36, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, or Amendment 37, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, the reason for the measure is specifically the evolving picture on water. We are still looking at that. That is why the measure is in the Bill. Having looked at it, I think it is probably wider than we need, because, if it is needed just for water and sewerage, I do not see why we cannot say so. Therefore, I will certainly take that back to see whether we cannot amend it. If the noble Baroness and noble Lord look at that provision, they may see that we need it because of the situation to which I have just referred of some English customers being subject to Welsh law and Welsh customers being subject to English law. We need to tidy that up.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked about the transfer of functions orders. He will be aware that I wrote to noble Lords setting out those we intend to transfer. Because of the evolving nature of reserved matters—for example, on teachers’ pay—work on that is still going on. I assure him that work continues on that, perhaps not quite as we speak but pretty much as we speak. On the basis of these remarks, I would be grateful if the noble Lord would withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hope of Craighead]

I take up the noble Lord on one point. If I heard him correctly, he said that the amendment was concerned with legislative functions. Strictly speaking, it deals with executive functions, certainly from the perspective of the Scotland Act. Looking at it against that background, I see this as dealing very definitely with the functions of Ministers, which is the executive branch, rather than the powers of the Assembly.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is absolutely right. I correct myself.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

The noble Lord has not clarified to me why he would object to the principle of this alignment between executive and legislative competence. He has told us that he has looked at all these different things, has brought most of them forward, that there is a long list and that he does not think there are many more. But why would he object to the principle of this alignment?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, with respect, for the reason I have given—namely, that it is fine as a principle but, because it on occasion throws up circumstances that cannot be foreseen, it is wise that we go through it with a fine-toothed comb. If we had not done so, it would create difficulties with the alignment we are seeking on water, for example.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

Would it not be possible to do it the other way round and make an exception to the principle? Would that not be easier?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Once we know what the exceptions are, of course, that is the case, but we need to go through them to make sure that there are none of those exceptions.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister yet again for his generosity in responding to the arguments. We await his further consideration and, no doubt, will have further discussions with him. As the former Member of Parliament and now the Assembly Member for a particular length of the River Dee, I certainly would not want to deprive customers anywhere on either side of the Marches of Wales of their water supply. It is a bit rich, when we revert to this exceptional issue, to suggest to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that because the rivers in Scotland apparently flow into the sea rather than into England, the situation in Scotland is somehow different. We need weightier arguments on that issue than we have had.

However, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, emphasised the need for clarity and accountability. That is exactly the clarity that all of us who have tried to build and rebuild the devolution settlement in Wales seek. I was particularly grateful, as always, to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his incisive questioning, and, of course, to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, whom I affectionately earlier called the red baroness. I hope that did not cause her offence. Perhaps I called her that in the Assembly; I keep confusing the Assembly and this Parliament. I will withdraw the amendment but I give way to the noble Lord.

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Moved by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

30: Schedule 4, page 94, line 6, at end insert “or the Marine Management Organisation”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

I support this amendment, the first of a series dealing with individual areas where the British Government do not want certain things devolved to the Welsh Government. I understand why that should be the case in some areas but the onus is squarely on the United Kingdom Government to explain why it should not be the case in others. I am not convinced that Milford Haven should be any different from any other Welsh port. If the issue is about the devolution of ports, the ports should be devolved, both Milford Haven and the rest of them. There may well be a reason but, given the general situation in regard to all these functions, as we go through them today and next week, I repeat, the onus must squarely be on the Government to explain why, under this new system of reserved powers, the Welsh Government cannot have responsibility for them.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I apologise for being blindsided on the government amendments in this group but perhaps I may turn to them first before answering the points raised by noble Lords.

Through the government amendments we will give the Welsh Ministers new powers and more flexibility to make grants or payments to encourage freight modal shift from road to water. The Welsh Ministers are already able under Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 to make grants or other payments for carriage of freight on inland waterways where this is wholly within Wales, but neither the Secretary of State nor the Welsh Ministers are able to award a grant for a cross-border inland waterway service. This relates to the porous nature of the water, canals and so on to which I referred earlier. Two separate grants would be needed—one for the section of waterway in England and the other for the section of waterway in Wales. The amendment will enable a single grant to be made by either or both the Secretary of State or the Welsh Ministers for a cross-border service on inland waterways. I hope noble Lords will acknowledge that that is very sensible. This already happens for rail in the mode shift revenue support scheme, which is a scheme for rail and inland waterways.

The amendment would also give the Welsh Ministers new powers to award grants or other payments under Section 272 of the Transport Act 2000 for freight services by sea to, from or within Wales. At present only the Secretary of State is able to do so. Although the waterborne freight grant scheme is a Great Britain-wide scheme, the Welsh Ministers do not currently have the same powers as the Scottish Government to award grants under it. The amendment will put that right.

Joint and concurrent powers will offer the flexibility to make awards for cross-border freight services by inland waterway and sea. They also allow for the possibility that there could be circumstances in which the Secretary of State might wish to provide support for services to or from a reserved trust port in Wales and another port in Wales.

Government Amendments 83C, 83D and 107B transfer further powers to the Welsh Ministers to allow them to make loans to harbour authorities under the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972 and the Harbours Act 1964. They enable the Welsh Ministers to make the loans out of the Welsh Consolidated Fund and they apply requirements for the loan accounts to be certified by the Auditor-General for Wales and laid before the Welsh Assembly. The effect of the amendments is to ensure that in relation to harbours wholly in Wales, other than reserved trust ports, the Welsh Ministers can fully exercise the loan-making functions currently conferred on the Secretary of State, subject to equivalent controls.

The Bill already provides for the Welsh Ministers to make loans under Section 11 of the Harbours Act 1964 to harbour authorities for works to harbours wholly in Wales, other than reserved trust ports. The first amendment will also allow Welsh Ministers to make loans to these harbour authorities to pay off capital debts, temporary loans and overdrafts as provided for by the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972.

The second amendment inserts new provisions into Section 43 of the Harbours Act 1964 which supplement the transfer of loan-making powers under the Harbours Act 1964 and the Harbours (Loans) Act 1972. These comprise giving the Welsh Ministers the power to set the repayment terms of any loans made; enabling the issue to the Welsh Ministers of sums to make the loans from the Welsh Consolidated Fund; requiring that all loan repayments must be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund; and requiring the Welsh Ministers to prepare annual accounts in respect of loans issued to and repaid by harbour authorities and the Auditor-General for Wales to certify and report on the accounts of the Welsh Assembly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, has tabled a number of amendments which would remove reservations for reserved trust ports from the Bill and indicated her intention to oppose that Clause 32 stand part of the Bill, which would remove the definition of a reserved trust port. Amendments 61 to 64 seek to remove reservations for and other references to reserved trust ports from Schedule 1, which reserves legislative competence for these ports. Amendments 84 and 86 to 95 seek to remove reservations for and other references to reserved trust ports from Clauses 29, 30 and 33, dealing with the transfer of the executive functions to Welsh Ministers. Clause 32 does not contain any reservations but defines the term “reserved trust port”, and its removal from the Bill would be consequential upon the amendments The Government believe that the reservations for reserved trust ports are an essential element of the Bill and therefore cannot support the amendments of the noble Baroness.

However, in the light of the comments made—particularly by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, who obviously is well acquainted with the trust port—but without any promises, I will have another look at this issue. The point of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that we should not be slavishly mirroring Scotland, is well made. We have to look at the issues specifically on the basis of the nature of Wales. It is right that this would be the only port caught within the definition by some margin—all the other ports are much smaller. Some noble Lords have said that this is just replicating the current position but that is not true because other trust ports would be transferred under the proposals in the Bill.

It is right that this is significant in relation to LNG—I have got 63% but we will not argue about 1%—and gas. It was also at one stage suggested by the current First Minister as a base for the nuclear fleet. The Government are not considering that but it gives an indication of the important strategic role played by Milford Haven. It is a deep water port of unique significance. As I say, I will have another look at the issue but without making a promise on the conclusion.

[Lord Crickhowell]

Perhaps I may clarify something. I entirely accept and understand the strategic argument but perhaps I should explain why I slightly question the aspect of safety. To give an example, the old Esso jetty, which is a mile long, stretches right across the entrance to the port into the area where all gas tankers entering the port have to pass. It is one of the most exposed parts of the port because it is close to the mouth of Milford Haven. If an accident was to happen, for example, by a gas tanker being blown on to the end of the Esso jetty—and collisions have occurred in the past with fishing vessels hitting the jetty—and an explosion occurred, it would devastate the towns and the oil refinery on the south bank and the town of Milford Haven on the north bank. It is therefore a matter of considerable interest to the Government of Wales on grounds of safety and its possible effect on inhabitants. It is an issue that needs to be considered because there is probably a case for the Government of Wales to at least be involved in some way in considering the possible consequences on the population around the haven if an accident were to occur.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend for that intervention. He is absolutely right about the need for partnership working between the Government in Wales and the Government at Westminster—as happened in the past, I think he would acknowledge, in relation to disasters that happened in the port. As I said, I have also been involved with the port of Milford Haven through the enterprise zone. It is my understanding that there is co-operation with the Welsh Government at the moment, but there is certainly consultation on certain matters on the part of the port with the Government. It is, of course, important that they are fully engaged. As I have said, I will go and look at it, but without making any promises.

Amendment 98 would require the Secretary of State to consult with Welsh Ministers while setting the strategic priorities relating to the Secretary of State’s delivery, in Wales, of functions under two pieces of primary legislation: the Coastguard Act 1925 and the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. These functions are all reserved matters, exercisable by the Secretary of State for Transport, and are in practice delivered in the United Kingdom by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, an executive agency of the Department for Transport.

The strategic priorities involved would cover decisions over subject areas such as the 24-hour search and rescue helicopter service provided by the coastguard, and the promotion of seafarer health and safety standards. “Strategic priorities” does not cover operational activities and incident response decisions, which remain the responsibility of the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. Such consultation would normally be effected through administrative arrangements. However, I recognise that the noble Baroness’s amendment mirrors the action taken by the Government through the Scotland Act 2016. Despite having said we will not slavishly mirror things, I will look at that and reflect on the issues raised by the noble Baroness in the amendment. In the light of that, I ask that she does not press her amendments in this group.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

I thank the Minister for that and welcome the amendments he put forward relating to the modal grants, the cross-border initiatives and the loans for harbour authorities. I note he said there was an exception and that trust ports would not be allowed to access those grants. I assume they would be allowed to access other UK grants. Perhaps he could clarify that.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I think that related just to reserved trust ports, so it would only be those that are reserved in relation to the Milford Haven issue.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

I thank the Minister. I noted he said that Milford Haven was essential to the Bill. He then said that he would take another look. I ask him to think about the issues that people have underlined today. The integration of the economy, the environment and safety have all been touched on. The noble Lord was on the enterprise zone for that area. He will therefore be aware of how crucial that interactivity—the interaction between local communities and the local authority—is. All those things need to be co-ordinated. Would it not be a lot easier to co-ordinate that if that power were given to the Welsh Assembly? I appreciate that he will also look at the issue relating to the coastguard and I would be prepared to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, on the point the noble Baroness raised on the enterprise zone, it exhibited that the current arrangements work very well, but I will have a look at it. In the meantime, I propose that the amendment be agreed to.