Pensions Bill

Lord Bishop of Chester Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2014 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I warmly support both these approaches. Although they are contrasting—the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, emphasises transparency while the other approach offers appropriate consumer protection through some degree of regulation—I do not think that they are incompatible with each other.

In approaching this matter I follow what the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said in response to an earlier amendment: the overall aim is to engage people so that they save for their retirement. As I said earlier in the passage of the Bill, the lack of provision in retirement for future generations is a time bomb. The Bill, which in general I warmly support, attempts to address that.

The sheer complexity of this area is a problem, as we have discovered in this Committee. If we find this issue complex, how does a member of the public find it when they are making a decision about whether to put additional contributions into their scheme? The money-purchase schemes that are now predominant will work only if people add contributions of their own and do not just rely on the employer contribution. I think that we need transparency in this area—not only the details set out by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, but an overall figure of costs bringing together all the different costs discovered by the Which? report. Transparency over overall costs is necessary or people will feel disengaged.

One of the problems in our society is disengagement with politics in general, partly caused by the sheer amount of legislation turned out by Parliament. No one really understands what is going on and so people disengage from it. With all the jargon in the investment industry, not least in relation to pensions—terms such as “bid/offer”, “revenue splits” and so on—the average person in the street simply would not know what is being referred to. We need an overall figure that helps people to understand how much of the money that they are investing is actually invested, and investment returns, in a way that is transparent and where the consumer is generally protected. A few years ago, stakeholder pensions were an attempt to achieve this, but I am not sure what happened to them. As far as I can see, these amendments are entirely consonant with the broad push of Schedule 17. I conclude my remarks.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

I am not used to being interrupted in my perorations, but I was coming to an end. Schedule 17 says that the Government,

“may impose duties on the trustees or managers of a relevant scheme”.

These amendments spell out what those duties might be, in the interests of transparency, with a view to try to encourage people to invest in these products with some certainty as to how much of their money is going to be invested. I hope that the Government will look sympathetically on the issues that have been raised.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Browne and Lord Lawson, for raising these issues, because they allow us to examine the approaches which might be taken in the regulations which may follow and to ask the Government to describe which of these approaches, or what combination of these approaches, they might take. It is quite clear, in my view, that there are two separate approaches: one based on regulation and the other based on openness, transparency and disclosure. There is no reason why you cannot have some of one and some of the other; where the balance is drawn is a matter for debate and discussion. Ultimately, this matter goes to the heart of the success of our pensions industry for savers. The saver must have trust in a system which has a long tail behind it to understand that his or her money is being invested wisely and will return on that investment to provide a pension.

Auto-enrolment will, in the long run, be a success only if the schemes into which people are enrolled are well run and invest people’s savings responsibly. This is particularly important in DC schemes because, in the end in those schemes, the saver bears the investment risk of that complex decision process, which is more often than not made entirely without the saver’s knowledge or input. I was very interested in the chain described by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, which stretched from Manchester to Monte Carlo. I dare say that if you started to plan these chains out around the world, you would probably find that these decisions were taken in all sorts of places and the connections very wide. That helps demonstrate the length of the chain in investment decisions, particularly if you start with the saver.

Of course, auto-enrolled savers do not choose their own pension provider. Poor pension companies might not become immediately evident to the saver. The best governance of the system would ensure robust oversight of savers’ interests and, most importantly, open communication with savers. It is not always obvious that those in the investment chain place the obligation to protect the best interests of savers at the heart of their decisions, particularly if they are in Monte Carlo. Fundamentally, that means improving transparency and promoting the disclosure of clear and relevant information to savers, as well as ways in which savers can easily find out information about their own savings.

I hope that the Government will tell us a little bit today about how they propose to deal with these very important issues and which approaches they intend to take that might guide the legislation that is to follow in regulations. Could my noble friend say something about how they intend to make the application of the UK stewardship code applicable to all pension schemes into which people are auto-enrolled?

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[Lord Bates]

Okay, I have the right answer now: £20,000 is needed for flexible draw-down but not for capped draw-down or trivial commutation of benefits. There are different elements of it. My point, from which I have probably strayed into a trap—I should have stuck to the script—was that there is a range of choices, not simply the annuity rate which people face. That is why it is vital that all members engage early. That is the reason for the wake-up programme which is now being organised, to encourage people to engage with what they should be considering later on.

Also, making brokers the first port of call for all would create a captive market for one part of the industry, without effectively adding to consumer protections. Another risk to consumers is that they could fail to engage with options other than annuities that are more appropriate to them.

The noble Lord’s amendment suggests that a brokerage service would have to provide information on alternative at-retirement services, but it has to be recognised that brokers are not impartial. They make their money if the member buys an annuity, but not if they choose to draw down or defer, or to commute. While it is right that schemes should play a central role in informing consumers of their options, we would be wary of making this part of the qualifying criteria for automatic enrolment. The duty to enrol into a qualifying scheme does, of course, fall on the employer, and so to require them to take this step would be an unwelcome, additional burden.

I make it clear that we are committed to ensuring that consumers have the information they need to make good choices and that the annuities market works effectively for consumers and so, in this respect, we welcome the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has perhaps chided my honourable friend Steve Webb for raising this matter on annuities but, in many ways, he was doing just what the noble Lord is doing: saying that this is an area which needs to be discussed and debated. In many ways, this debate enables us to do that, but so do the reviews which are taking place and to which I have alluded in my response. I trust that, as part of that, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, briefly, I listened to the Minister with great interest. I regard the amendment as important because, in a sense, the proof of the pudding is in the eating; it is when you are taking the benefits of the saving.

The Minister’s reply, it seems to me, says that in addition to all the complexities which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, set out, there is actually a whole load of other complexities about whether you should be having an annuity at all. My question is simply as follows. Until now, when we have often had final-salary schemes around, these decisions have been largely managed. However, we are increasingly moving into a position where most people will be on money-purchase schemes, and this will become normal; we will have to engage with these issues. Given the complexities which the Minister has so helpfully set out, is the Government’s view that the obligation to work this out is on the consumer—the person taking the pension—with some information provided somewhere, or is the obligation on the pension provider to provide information which covers all these options? Where does the responsibility primarily lie to advise the person at the point of retirement? I thought it was not quite clear enough as to where that lies in what the Minister said.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I will ask another question associated directly with that. To what extent does the Minister expect the Money Advice Service to take on some of this responsibility, given the slightly bumpy ride it has had so far? Or do the Government—and here I declare an interest—expect an organisation like the Pensions Advisory Service to take on some of this responsibility? It has to be free, independent, impartial and professional. Those are the only two organisations of which I am aware which might fit that role at the moment.