Data Protection (Processing of Sensitive Personal Data) Order 2012

Lord Beecham Excerpts

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, as the Minister reminded us, it is now close to a quarter of a century since this terrible event occurred. The pain has yet to be assuaged and many questions have yet to be answered. I commend the Government on proceeding to facilitate the work of the independent panel.

I have one or two questions, beginning with the point made by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee about the title of the order. In paragraph 26 of its report, the committee says that it is disappointed that the title of the legislation does not make the Hillsborough connection clear, and that those with an interest in the investigation of the disaster should be able to find related information easily. It makes the perhaps general point that the titles of instruments should be clear and transparent. I wonder whether it is possible, even at this late stage, for the title to be changed so that anyone who wishes to refer to the instrument in due course can track it down with ease. Maybe there will not be many but there may well be some who wish to do that. In replying, perhaps the Minister will also indicate whether he and his ministerial colleagues will look at the more general point made by the committee about the titling of such documents.

One or two questions arise on the detail of the order, based on the Explanatory Notes, which are, as ever, very helpful. In particular, they say that the panel’s secretariat will discuss the implications of the order with the disclosing organisations and the Hillsborough families. I am not sure about the timing of that; perhaps the Minister will enlighten us. Have those discussions begun in advance of the order? In other words, has the draft order been discussed or is the intention to discuss it only when it is finally confirmed? I hope that discussions have already taken place. It would seem a little odd if they have not but I assume that they have. It would be very helpful to know about that.

A couple of other questions arise from the detail, particularly on the panel’s terms of reference and how the protocol that it seeks to adopt, and which the order facilitates, will work in practice. The Minister referred to exceptions to public disclosure, particularly information that indicates the views of Ministers. In the normal course of events that would be sensible. However, will Ministers’ views be particularly relevant? After all, they would be discussing any events after they happened, so their views would not materially contribute to the work of the panel in seeking finally to ascertain the causes of the tragedy.

As the noble Lord said, it is also indicated that individuals’ identities may well be protected. The notes indicate that certain categories of individual will be redacted from the information. I wonder about this in respect of two particular categories: police officers who were constables or other ranks up to and including sergeant at the time the document was produced, and the fourth category listed—although I will confine myself to two—of junior public employees who were not in a position to determine their agency’s response. In relation to the first category, I wonder what the rationale for that restriction might be. It may be that people at the rank of sergeant were not in a position to influence, one way or another, the outcome on the day. On the other hand, it is possible, I suppose, that they might have been and the difficulty of redacting means that perhaps people who are definitely not in a position to do anything might find themselves potentially under some kind of cloud or question as to what their role had been. This is a difficult area but can the Minister give an indication of the rationale of that and whether he is confident that in redacting all names of those ranks and below, and of the other category to which I referred, justice is being done to those who are in no way culpable on any view.

We welcome the progress that is being made. We welcome the way the working of the panel will now be facilitated but I would be grateful if the noble Lord could respond to the questions I have raised.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for that intervention. The Hillsborough disaster is one of those events where you know where you were on the day. I was in Rochdale and I can remember hearing the tragedy unfurl on the radio. As an avid soccer fan I thought then, “Never again”. To be fair, much has changed in the way that football treats its fans in terms of ground safety so perhaps we can say never again. Also, successive Governments have realised that there are still open wounds in Liverpool and there are questions that need to be answered. Again, successive Governments have responded to that fact by the determination to carry through this very thorough inquiry under the very distinguished and trusted leadership of the Bishop of Liverpool.

On the question of the title, it is probably true to say that it would have been better to have had a title that stated the intention exactly. However, there were contrasting opinions on whether the panel and the bodies giving evidence to the panel were protected under existing legislation. In a way, this order is a little bit of belt and braces in terms of giving assurance so that the panel could do its work. Could it have been better described in the Data Protection (Processing of Sensitive Personal Data) Order 2012? In hindsight, perhaps it could and it could have made a specific reference to the specific case that it was there to address. However, we considered the views of the committee carefully and concluded that to deal effectively with its concerns might have brought potentially damaging delay into bringing this order forward. We have taken such action as possible with local media and others to make it clear that people will be able to locate this order. I would ask noble Lords to bear in mind that to have accepted the committee’s recommendations would have meant that the order would have had to have been withdrawn, re-laid and to have gone through the scrutiny process again. That might have pushed the House’s approval for the draft order—if it is forthcoming—back past the Summer Recess and would have had a knock-on effect on the expected delivery time of the panel’s findings.

The fact that there is no specific reference to Hillsborough in the title is not, I think, a catastrophic error. We have taken measures to try and guide people who wonder what it is and what it is for. I hope this explanation clarifies that.

[Lord Beecham]

I understand that and am grateful to the noble Lord. I am just wondering whether the pathway will be signalled on the website and so on, so that people looking at the Hillsborough website will be directed to it rather than having to comb down through long lists of statutory instruments. I have not looked at the website myself and so do not know how it is set up at the moment, but I assume there will be a website for the independent panel. If it is clear from there what this document is about and where it can be found, that would be sufficient. I assume that is what is happening but I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that.

[Lord McNally]

I think I can confirm that that is what is happening and that anybody who goes to the Hillsborough website will be directed to it. The draft order has been discussed with the families at all stages and those discussions will continue. I note the point that the noble Lord made about Ministers but the Government have taken the decision that all material, including Cabinet minutes, will be published. I can understand that, as it is not just an inquiry into what happened in or around the ground—people will want to know about a range of issues. Over these 25 years, I have taken an interest in the follow-up to Hillsborough and, as such, one of the statements that I found most reassuring was the one by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, when she made clear that the Government’s attitude would be full disclosure, within the limits that I referred to about due care and not putting the families through the trauma again by careless or unneeded disclosure.

One has to make a judgment about the protection of junior officers and lower-rank officials. It is a judgment call and if the panel brought forward events or findings that meant that a particular individual warranted being named for some action or lack of action, that would be a matter the panel would have to take into account. I also think that, if you are publishing, it is fair in terms of responsibility to have a certain redaction policy. We have made the judgment that it is, in fairness, right not to publish all the names concerned. I think those were the points that the noble Lord raised and I ask the Committee to approve the Motion.