Pensions Bill

Lord Bates Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab)]

My Lords, I have not spoken on this item hitherto except briefly at Second Reading. In my opinion, it is one of the most important issues before the Committee. That is because it is quite obvious that the Government want people to save. Everything they have been telling us about pensions indicates that they want people to save. What happens if people do save, but then they transfer jobs? Nowadays, of course, people do not stay in the same job for their lifetime. They may have several or even many changes of job in the course of a career. What happens to the pension pots that they accumulate? If there is no safety in those pension pots, the whole thing will be a disaster. I support strongly what my noble friends have said. It is clear that this is something that requires a great deal of attention.

Is the regulator to have more powers to deal with this? It is obvious that you cannot have a situation in which pension pots are put at risk because there is no way of handling the market or for dealing with people who will be forced to make choices for which they do not have the necessary skills or experience. They cannot make the right kind of choices and they may end up with a bit of a disaster instead of a reasonable pension, or even a reasonable lump sum to place with another pension provider. Again, I hope that the Government will take seriously what has been said in this debate. It is a very important issue.

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly assure the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, that we will take very seriously what has been said this afternoon because it comes from such authoritative sources. We have had a high-quality discussion, as is typical of this entire Committee. In fact, at one point I think that we had a Turner commission quorum. This is a very important discussion. We are agreed about the urgent need to tackle small pots and to keep people engaged as regards the value of their savings with a view to their increasing them and being able to purchase a bigger pension when they retire. The savings culture to which the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, has just referred is at the heart of this amendment and the proposals we have put forward.

First, I wish to put some general remarks on the record and, in so doing, speak to government Amendments 62A and 62B, standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Freud. I will then turn to the issues and questions raised and, I hope, give noble Lords some comfort on them.

I think it is worth starting on a note of consensus. Clearly, there is a strong sense that the issue of the proliferation of small pots is one that needs to be addressed. There is some disagreement about how we get there—an issue on which we have consulted extensively since 2011. We announced our preference for the pot-follows-member-model in 2012 and reiterated it in the Command Paper published last year. A full and proper policy-making process has been followed in coming to this conclusion. These amendments seek fundamentally to change our proposals to a type of aggregator model, where pension pots will be moved to a separate nominated transfer scheme. We consulted on the option of an aggregator and there was no clear consensus for a particular type of aggregator. We received views on single, multiple and virtual aggregator models and only 19% of respondents preferred a multiple aggregator which these amendments seek to introduce. Therefore, these provisions, while providing a broad framework, legislate specifically for the pot-follows-member model, providing a clear direction to drive development of the detailed transfer process and to enable the industry to plan for the future.

I will take some time to set out why this Government believe it is right to take this approach. The rationale behind automatic transfers has always been to ensure that individuals have better retirement outcomes and we believe that pot follows member will help to achieve this because it brings greater pension pot consolidation. The proportion of people reaching retirement with five or more dormant pots could fall from one in four without reform to nearly one in 30. We estimate that pot follows member will halve the number of dormant pots and make net administrative savings of £6.4 billion by 2050. That is a key point because the administrative costs of pensions are at the heart of what we are talking about in terms of charges, so therefore reductions in costs mean a bonus for the savers.

In contrast, by their very nature, aggregator models mean less consolidation than pot follows member. Individuals will have at least two pots in a single aggregator model and they could have many more in a multiple aggregator model. Our research shows that a single aggregator scheme would achieve only around half the net present value of a pot-follows-member system to the new employer’s scheme. Given that people are more likely to engage with pension saving as they see their pot grow, coupled with the fact that most annuity providers require a minimum of at least £5,000 or £10,000 in a pension pot to achieve the market option to which the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, referred, consolidation is a key objective to achieve greater results and economies from the purchase of annuities.

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[Baroness Drake]

Will the Minister accept that, whereas getting every automatic enrolment qualifying scheme up to a minimum standard is an excellent aspiration, getting everyone up to a minimum standard is not the same as setting a very high set of standards for a scheme that you are using to default people’s pensions into?

[Lord Bates]

The Government are not averse to excellent aspirations in a whole range of policy areas but in that particular area we need to look at the issue of the quality. In many ways, this goes back to the introduction of auto-enrolment, when perhaps it should have been the case that scheme quality was dealt with at that time. That would have made an awful lot of sense.

[Baroness Drake]

I do not want to get into that political debate because there might be some merit in what the noble Lord said. One of the core issues is that a default pension scheme was not chosen but I do not want to drift there. However, it does not matter who should have dealt with the minimum standards for qualifying schemes and when. If the Government are going to take to themselves the power to say, on behalf of millions of people in this country, “We will automatically transfer”, then the governance standards required in the scheme receiving the pots transferred under those terms have to be pretty high, do they not?

[Lord Bates]

Yes, and our hope and belief is that there will be higher standards. That cannot be issued by diktat and has not been covered. We are simply giving the powers and setting out the framework as to how we will go about that, but that discussion has to be had with the pensions industry. The conversation is ongoing and we will certainly be reporting on that progress.

I turn to some of the specific points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, talked about the level of support and seemed to be fairly sceptical about whether there was any.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords—

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness always asks an honest and genuine question, and I am trying to give an honest and genuine response, which is to say that we are not necessarily comparing like with like here. Although people understand how the pot-follows-member scheme might work—in other words, they will have just one pot, and everything will be transferred into it—they do not necessarily understand what the noble Baroness is proposing in terms of alternatives, whether they are single, multiple or virtual aggregators. Therefore, to give a clear-cut position on that is somewhat difficult.

It was drawn to my attention today that Adrian Boulding of Legal and General, one of the largest pension providers, in today’s Pensions Expert, formerly Pensions Week, says:

“the concept of your pension pot following automatically to a new employer is now not far off. The long-term benefits of people having ‘one big fat pension pot’, as the minister likes to call it”—

I think the Minister he is referring to is my right honourable friend Steven Webb—

“will be greater consumer engagement, more informed decisions, greater buying power and better pension outcomes. All well worth striving for”.

[Baroness Drake]

He would say that, wouldn’t he?

[Lord Bates]

He might say that but he is one of the providers and I therefore think that that is certainly well worth listening to. Another reason why we have come to this conclusion is because there is a great deal of uncertainty about what is happening out there. Auto-enrolment in pension schemes has been a huge success and the previous Government deserve credit for introducing it in the 2007 and 2008 Acts, based on the recommendations of the Turner commission. The price of the success of auto-enrolment is that it is creating a larger number of smaller pension pots as people move on. Figures have been quoted of there already being 370,000, and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, has talked about a future figure of 600,000. That means that the need to make a decision is more urgent than ever. The noble Baroness was asking, “What does the industry think? What are people actually thinking?”. Pensions Expert, in its comment and analysis section said:

“If last year was about policy, then this year it is going to be all about making things work. Government have now clearly set the direction of travel. The success of auto-enrolment—in terms of low opt-out rates—means even more small pots are going to be created than were expected. Previous estimates that auto-enrolment would create around 370,000 new pots of less than £2,000 each year now look woefully low”.

They are very clear in what they are saying: they want direction. That does not mean to say that that direction cannot be changed by a future Government—just that they are getting clear direction. We consulted about it in 2011; in 2012 we issued a response; in 2013 we actually said what we were going to do. It seems as if finally, the industry—and, we hope, members—are getting their heads around the fact that this is the preferred option and the route that we are going down to ensure that we actually make it work.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

They may be getting their heads around the Government’s position, but that does not mean that they agree with it.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness says they do not agree with it, but when the ABI actually carried out a survey and asked people which one they preferred, 58% of consumers said they preferred pot follow member.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Did the noble Lord not say a moment ago that perhaps the aggregator model was initially slightly more difficult to understand than the pot-follows-member model? It is not surprising, therefore, that initially, some of these surveys may have shown less support for that model.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord makes my point: it is more difficult to understand. What are we trying to do? We are trying to make it simpler. We are trying to get people to be able to understand it. That is one of the reasons why it appeals to people. They will only ever have one pension pot; under the other scheme they may have several; they will be able to keep track of that and follow it through. Anyway, we can discuss and debate that, but in all of the consultation that was undertaken, it was clear that there was a strong view in favour—not only from the respondents of the consultation, but also in the opinion polls that followed from the industry.

The noble Lord, Lord Turner, raised the important issue that pot follows member fails to deal with high charges. We strongly agree that driving up scheme quality is of paramount importance. This is an issue wider than just a scheme used for transfers in the aggregator model, but actually should be something that applies to all, to set minimum standards across a broader range of schemes. Therefore, in doing so, it would benefit not just those affected by these pension pot transfers, but also the existing members of those schemes.

The noble Lord, Lord Turner, said he did not accept the pot size comparisons that were being put forward. He spoke about the £2,000 limit: why was it £2,000? We actually consulted not just on £10,000: we consulted on £20,000, £10,000, £5,000, all the way down to £2,000 and even £1,000, which is similar to the amount that is currently used in the Australian model, which is often cited in this context. In all of those different levels, pot follows member came out ahead of the aggregator in terms of individual responses.

[Baroness Drake]

I would not presume to speak for the noble Lord, Lord Turner—I learn from him, not the other way around—but the point he was making was that one of the Government’s arguments against aggregator was that they would have to limit the pot size, which would introduce inefficiencies, because if they did not do so, it would distort the market. He was saying, I think, that he did not necessarily accept that that was a compelling argument against aggregator.

[Lord Bates]

It is a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Turner, is not here to respond to that himself or to clarify the point, but I take the clarification from the noble Baroness about where he was going. On the issue of how to drive down costs, the noble Lord referred to the potential and mentioned some horrendous numbers—25% or 30% of accrued pension disappearing in charges and how low it was possible to get that. There are some very interesting findings, which we are consulting on at present, about how technology would be a key ally in this. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about this too, wondering whether we preferred a paper-based system or an electronic system. Our preference, based on the current evidence, is invariably towards electronic, because there are associated costs every time you push a bit of paper around. I was interested to read in various articles that you might be able to get the figure for the entire transaction of a transfer down to £105 for both transmitting and receiving the amount if you do it electronically. There needs to be an electronic element to this and that probably points in the direction of a database. We are still consulting on that. We are open to advice, but that is probably something on which the industry will have to offer views.

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[Baroness Sherlock]

I thank the Minister for that response and am also very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this discussion. The noble Lord joked at the beginning that the Turner commission had been quorate. I think when he reads Hansard he may find that slightly less funny than it seemed on the face of it. If I was sitting where he was sitting and two-thirds of the members of the pensions commission told me that I had got this wrong—auto-enrolment and all that flowed from it was based on their recommendations—I would be thinking very hard indeed at this point.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Turner, for what seemed to me a pretty damning indictment of the fact that, although we may share an objective, the way the Government are going about trying to achieve this will not tackle the very grave consequences of market failure in the pensions market for savers who are depending on the results of those investments for their retirement income. As my noble friend Lady Turner pointed out, that is one of the most significant issues facing not just the Government but, frankly, this Committee.

I am sorry. I have a great deal of respect for the Minister but I am afraid that he was unable to answer the major questions that came up today. I do not blame him for that. He did not invent the policy: it was invented in another place and he is doing a good job of defending it. But the fundamental questions are out there unanswered. The noble Lord, Lord Turner, pushed home the consequences of that market failure on high costs and charges and what that does to savers’ incomes, and the fact that, despite the Government's best intentions, pot follows member simply does not contain within it the means for addressing that.

The noble Lord also pointed out the consequence of what happens to savers’ incomes in retirement of not getting that right now. Those effects will run for a long time. I was very grateful for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham. Given the origins of this Bill, I thought it was a brave and helpful intervention. But the questions that he posed about how pot follows member can deal with old pots and multiple moves are still sitting on the table. It will be interesting to hear whether there is some small movement on auto enrolment pots, but we will still have the issue of significant numbers of dormant small pots.

We still do not have an answer, as my noble friend Lady Drake pointed out, to the problem of people who are leaving the labour market altogether either to become self-employed or simply to leave the labour market. What happens to those pots?

We did not really get an answer as to why, when so much of the Bill is remarkably loose, the Government suddenly get very prescriptive in this area and solely specify PFM on the face of the Bill. As my noble friend Lady Drake pointed out very powerfully, there are some major difficulties of implementation. The Minister is calling for speed and action now. He must know that the barriers to implementation described by my noble friend Lady Drake are such that he is not in a position to press that button now. If he is, he might want to respond to the questions that she posed about the IT challenges, the standardisation challenges, the huge issues of implementation and the need to build consensus across the industry to prioritise savers’ interests. If he feels that the Government have all those cracked, I encourage him to stand up and intervene and tell me now. Otherwise, there is a lot more work to be done. All this amendment is trying to do is to make sure that that work does not abandon the alternative option—which may in the end be the saving of our shared objective—when there is no need to do so at this stage.

I am also concerned about some of the points that the Minister raised in response to there being no single model. I would be very happy to work with the Government to see if we can build consensus around a single model of an aggregator. If that is what the Minister offers, let us work together to try to do that.

The Minister said that there would be more consolidation in pot follows member. Leaving aside for one moment the serious concerns about the judgment made in the impact assessment raised by my noble friend Lady Drake and the noble Lord, Lord Turner, if pot follows member does not tackle the full range of risks that have been described, then that simply does not answer the question. The Minister again gave an argument that most annuity providers would require a minimum level of pot and the point of decumulation, but again he did not take on the point made by my noble friend Lady Drake, which is that being able to buy in bulk in the market, which an aggregator could do at the point of decumulation, actually opens up whole opportunities in that area.

He made the point about good and bad schemes and that there should not be any bad schemes. I completely agree with him, but there are 200,000 pension schemes in this country. The chances of getting all those up to an optimum level before this is introduced are frankly unrealistic. Given that, the point made by my noble friend Lady Drake stands even more strongly. Even if the Government could guarantee to get all those schemes up to what they would regard as an acceptable minimum standard in the context of the criticism of market failure made by the noble Lord, Lord Turner, and even if they could do that fast, there will still be a significant difference between the best and worst returns. For reasons I will explain in a moment, that seems to be very difficult in the context of auto enrolment.

I was pleased that the Minister managed to find some backing for his scheme from a survey. Did he say that the survey was conducted by the ABI?

[Lord Bates]

Yes.

[Baroness Sherlock]

That is marvellous. So the ABI backs a scheme and the survey conducted by the ABI backs the scheme. That is excellent. I think it still leaves out some possibility that there may be other people out there who do not back the scheme. Perhaps it was the other way round. Either way, I think it is the same point made differently. None the less, I take the point and thank him for sharing that with us.

The Minister also made the point that there will be real attractions—and he quoted someone from Legal & General saying that it was clear that the direction of travel from the Government was for pot follows member. There are—but, of course, this is a Bill, not an Act. It is open to Parliament to make a decision if it does not agree with what the Government are proposing, and so far this Committee clearly does not agree with what the Government are proposing. Not one person who has spoken backed the Government’s plan; all backed the alternative. So we still have an opportunity. He also went on to say that many advantages have been mentioned of people having one big, fat pension pot. Of course, there is no reason why that big, fat pension pot could not be sitting in a well performing, well regulated, successful aggregator.

That takes us to the fact that we have two significant public policy dilemmas or issues. The challenge that we have here is made all the more significant by the fact that it comes on the back of auto-enrolment. This is not an individual employee making a choice to go to a pension fund, place their money in it and take their risks in the market. This is somebody who is not choosing, but is simply choosing a job, and by doing so will be forced by default, if they make no other choice, automatically, without their express consent, their pension pot will be moved from their previous employers to their new employers. That is in the context whereby already the state has auto-enrolled them. So step one, without any active consent, we have auto-enrolled them in a pension scheme. Step two, when they move jobs, without any active consent we default moving it with them to the new employer. Doing that in a context where the level of return that they might have expected to gain with the old employer could, potentially, be significantly higher than that which might be enjoyed with the new employer, creates the possibility that the state is creating consumer detriment on a significant scale. That is a very serious challenge, and in that context I suggest that the Government’s proposal of pot follows member has a very high bar to pass.

Finally, the other public policy point is that, if one of the consequences of this is that significant numbers of savers end up with lower retirement incomes than they might otherwise do, that is bad for them, but it is also bad for us as a country. I think that my noble friend Lady Drake quoted from the impact assessment, which suggested that the gains and losses would balance out across the piece. Even if that is true, and I do not know the impact assessment well enough to be sure—I do not have enough confidence in it yet to be confident of that—that does not help us individually. On average, the life expectancy may be X, but if mine is significantly below and yours is significantly higher, the difference matters quite a lot to me, because although on average we may both die at 84, if I die at 60 and you die at 100, that does not make me happy. So the consequences for individuals are really quite significant.

Given all that, there is also the fact that the distribution will mean that, if savers do not go into retirement with the kind of incomes that the Government expect them to have, the whole strategy for retirement on which this is predicated begins to be called into question. So this whole Bill is predicated on an assumption that future generations of savers will have higher retirement incomes because of all these actions taken. It is, therefore, absolutely incumbent on all of us to make sure that the Government get this right. All this amendment does is to put the aggregator option into the Bill. I urge the Minister to accept it and to work with us in doing that. We will definitely return to this matter at a later stage but, since this is the Moses Room, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.