Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Barwell Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

I want to make some progress, as I am conscious that many hon. Members want to speak and that the time restrictions are considerable. Once I have done so, I will allow the Government Members who are standing up to intervene. I know that somebody behind me wanted to intervene, too.

Parliament should not stop people getting married just because they have fallen in love with someone of the same sex, and we should not say that same-sex relationships are intrinsically worth less. I know that many Members have raised objections: they fear that their Church or faith will be forced to hold same-sex marriages when they do not believe in it; they believe that, by definition, marriage is between a man and a woman, as it has been through the centuries; they believe that at the heart of marriage is the biological procreation of children; or they fear that widening marriage will undermine other relationships, stability and society. I disagree with each of those four objections, but I know they are held strongly by people whose views I respect, so I will address each of them in turn.

The first is the fear that Churches will be expected to support same-sex marriage in future. It is clear that they will not have to. I thought that the Minister for Women and Equalities powerfully explained the safeguards in the Bill. We have a long tradition in Britain of respecting religious freedom, which is built into our law and traditions.

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

rose—

[Yvette Cooper]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman later, as I promised to do so to other Members first.

The number of clauses in the Bill that deal directly with religion is unusual and is reflected in the decision of all parties to hold free votes. Freedom of religion is rightly protected in the Bill, as the Minister set out. No Church or religious organisation can be required to conduct same-sex marriage, nor can an individual minister, and if a religious organisation or an individual minister refuses to hold same-sex marriages, that will not count as discrimination under the Equality Act 2010. The right hon. Lady set out in some detail her double, tripe, quadruple, even quintuple locks, and she has a padlock, Yale lock, bolt, chain and even burglar alarm as well. I hope, however, that she agrees that Churches should be able to change their mind to support same sex marriage in future if they want to, without unnecessary hurdles and barriers. The Church of England and the Church in Wales have additional hurdles built into the Bill which we need to scrutinise in Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

In some ways, this is the most difficult issue that I have faced in my two and a half years as an MP. The majority of my constituents support the proposal, but many do not and some of those people feel very strongly about it. Also, I find myself on a different side of the argument from some of my colleagues and close friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes).

In other ways, however, the issue is clear cut. I have constituents who are in same-sex relationships and who want to get married. I have faith groups in my constituency that want to conduct same-sex marriages. We have heard a lot today about religious freedom. It would be totally wrong for any Church or mosque to be forced to conduct any wedding against its wishes, but it is equally wrong that faith groups in this country that want to conduct same-sex marriage services are prevented from doing so by the present law. There is clear public support for the proposal.

As a Conservative, I am a passionate believer in marriage as a force for good, and I lament its decline in our society. We have people who want to get married, yet some of us are not sure whether we should allow that to happen.

We have heard two main reasons for opposing the legislation. We have been asked to guarantee that it will not be successfully challenged in the courts. In fact, no Member can guarantee that the present law will not be successfully challenged. The question should be whether there is a credible risk of such a challenge, and the answer to that is no. Countries that already have this law have not been challenged. For years in this country, we have allowed divorced people to remarry in church, yet the Catholic Church’s policy of not remarrying divorcees has not been challenged. The most eminent lawyers in the country tell us that the risk is inconceivable, and the Church of England’s own briefing states that the Church does not believe it to be realistic or likely.

The other argument against the Bill is that it would undermine marriage. Mrs Barwell suffers enough as a result of my job, and if I thought it likely that I would go home tonight only to be accused of undermining my marriage by voting for the Bill, I would not vote for it. However, no one has yet come up with a credible explanation of how it would undermine marriage. Yes, it is controversial, but decriminalising homosexuality was controversial, as was our equalising the age of consent. It was also controversial when the Labour Government rightly legislated for civil partnerships. Once those things were done and the world did not end, public opinion changed, and that is what will happen when this legislation is passed.

I am by nature a small “c” conservative. I do not like change. There is a part of me that would like to take the world back to 1990 when my father was healthy, when I did not have the pressures of a demanding job and England were in the semi-finals of the World cup. There is another part of me, however, that recognises the failure of that approach. For conservatism to work, we have to accept that the world changes. If we do not, we become an anachronism. What we have to do as Conservatives is shape that change and try to preserve the best of what we inherited. That is what this Bill does. If it becomes law, it will not undermine marriage; it will not lead to Churches or mosques that do not wish to do so being forced to conduct same-sex marriages. What it will do is allow people of the same sex who love each other to exchange the same vows that Karen and I exchanged and to be part of the same institution.

I will conclude by quoting a comment that was posted on my website:

“I grew up under Thatcher, the gay son of a one parent family in Croydon, and got used to the endless moral scapegoating that the Conservatives subjected me to—ironic, given that I was otherwise a nice middle class child and classic Tory voting material—and the result of my experience was a real hatred towards the Tories. To have a group of Conservatives now fighting for me to be treated as an equal is refreshing and something I never thought I would see.”

Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), who was sitting in front of me, I am a Conservative moderniser. To people watching this debate today, I say this: I believe in marriage, I believe in religious freedom and I believe that the law of this country must treat people equally. That is why I will walk through the Lobby and vote for this Bill with pride. When I cease to be an MP and look in the mirror, I will still be proud of that.