Defence Reform Bill

Lord Bach Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2014 Grand Committee

It is undoubtedly the best way to go and, as I understand it—although it is complex for everyone—that is what DE&S is intended to bring in. I do not believe that it right to bring in a GOCO. We cannot discount the fact that no one else in the world has brought in a commercial organisation to run their procurement. If no one else wants to do it, why do we want to do so? DE&S+, which we have now ended up with, with a suspension of any move towards a GOCO, is the right thing to do. Although perhaps few people know this, the noble Lord, Lord Roper, who sitting on my left, used to teach me. He may recall that that was the sort of thing that he would have taught me at the time. If we stick with DE&S+, I would agree entirely that it would be good to shelve permanently the idea of bringing in a GOCO and leave it as another issue. If a future Government want to bring one in, that is entirely up to them, but we should not have this sort of trap door through which it can escape, if someone has the right key. We are now in the right place and we should stay there.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall not speak about the advantages or disadvantages of a GOCO; I remain fairly neutral on the issue. I have listened with great interest to the very good speeches that we have heard so far on this clause stand part debate started by my noble friend Lord Rosser. What concerns me is the point about an affirmative order being somehow a solution to this problem.

I will not speak with my ex-Minister for Defence Procurement hat on at this stage, although there is plenty that I could say and would like to say. I am concerned about statutory instruments being used in Parliament in both Houses as a way of holding Governments to account. My experience is that orders, whether negative or affirmative, are useful and the debates that follow from them are often vital when legislation is eventually brought into effect. My concern is that they are no way for Parliament to stop something happening that should not happen.

I speak from experience. This is not a boast but I am one of the few Members of this House who has successfully won a fatal Motion on an affirmative order. There are others on all sides of the House, but it is a very rare event. It happened a few years ago, on a completely different subject from this one, to legislation which required an affirmative order but was resisted. The House voted on that occasion by a very small majority not to pass the affirmative order. The consequences of that for the cause that I was espousing were probably worse than if I had not won that vote. The Government decided that they would do absolutely nothing about the fact that the affirmative order had been voted against and so the previous position then applied. It was a worse position than the one I was trying to get and on which the House had supported me. Since then, forgive me, I have been slightly sceptical—even cynical, sometimes—about how effective opposing affirmative orders can be. We know that we can oppose them, regret them or just have a debate on them, whichever either House decides to do, but the effect is nearly always the same: the Government get their way. The primary legislation is there and it is extremely hard—often impossible—even if the primary legislation needs to be amended by the affirmative order, for that to happen.

All I am saying in this debate is please do not choose an affirmative order as a way to get around this issue. Frankly, once you have passed legislation that includes a GOCO, if that is what the House decides to do, it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for either House of Parliament to change the position.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to the amendments. I look at the matter from the point of view of the user, the Armed Forces, and what is in it for them.

Nowadays, the Armed Forces will have much more say over the amount of money that may be spent on their equipment, and therefore they may take more of an interest in the detail of the procurement side than was true in my day. Nevertheless, it is important that they have confidence that whatever system is going to procure their equipment has general support throughout the country and throughout government. At the moment we have two propositions, neither of which seems to be making good headway. The GOCO has certainly made no headway and it remains to be seen how well the DE&S+ will go—I even have doubts about that—but, of the two, I prefer it the GOCO.

However, dealing with the amendments, I find a good deal of attraction in Amendment 25. It brings the super-affirmative approach to the issue and is the one that I would favour.

--- Later in debate ---

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked about affirmative orders and felt that they were not a way in which the Government could be stopped from doing something. If the affirmative order is not approved, the GOCO cannot proceed in the way set out in the Bill. The status quo does not include legislation for a GOCO to operate effectively. The need for an affirmative order gives real choice to Parliament. A future Government—any Government—cold not establish an effective GOCO without approving Part 1 of the Bill.

[Lord Bach]

My point is that an affirmative resolution does not really provide any effective stop for Parliament, not that it does so. Given my experience of affirmative orders that have been fatally objected against, I wonder how the noble Lord can say that an affirmative order that is defeated really changes things. What happens is that the Government of the day—this is not a reflection on the Minister’s Government—say that the legislation has been passed and the affirmative order must therefore also be passed. In reality, fighting affirmative orders is not an effective way of allowing Parliament to give its view. For something as vital and important as this, having merely the protection of an affirmative order somewhere down the line is not nearly enough. I should be interested to know why the Minister thinks differently.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I tabled our amendment after approaches from a number of noble Lords from different parts of the House who wanted to allow any future Government flexibility with which to introduce a GOCO, if that was thought to be the best thing at the time. In reply to the noble Lord’s question, one simply would not have the legislation without the commencement.