Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Austin of Dudley and Sajid Javid

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Let me begin by praising my hon. Friend for holding another successful job fair in his constituency. It is a concept that he pioneered, helping many young people to find jobs. HMRC has already held discussions with businesses, charities and payroll software providers about the employment allowance, and will use its key publications and communications to advertise it further. It will also work with key stakeholders to ensure that the abolition of employer national insurance contributions for under-21s, which will come into effect in April 2015, is delivered effectively.

[Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)]

The Government clearly oppose the implementation of a national youth jobs guarantee, but given that long-term youth unemployment is twice as high in the black country as it is elsewhere, surely the Minister must accept the case for a specific, targeted plan to guarantee young people in the area the chance of a job or training so that they can start their careers.

[Sajid Javid]

When the last Government were in office, unemployment among young people rose by 45%, so we are not going to listen to any ideas that Labour Members may have about it. The best way of cutting unemployment, whether long-term or otherwise, is to establish a growing economy that creates jobs. In the last four years, our economy has seen 1.3 million jobs created, and more people employed than at any other time in history.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Austin of Dudley and Sajid Javid

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)]

Q16. What recent assessment he has made of the extent to which the rate of increase of average earnings has kept up with the rate of consumer price inflation.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)]

The best way to deal with today’s cost-of-living challenges is to have paid employment. In the UK, the number of people employed has risen by 2.1% compared to a year ago—a faster rate of growth than those of our major competitors, including the US, France, Germany, Japan and the euro area as a whole.

[Ian Austin]

Instead of being complacent, the Minister should look at what the Office for Budget Responsibility says, which is that real wages will be lower in 2015 than when this Government came to power. A survey in Dudley shows that nine out of 10 families do not think they will be better off next year than this year, that eight out of 10 spent less at Christmas, and that a similar number have stopped saving. Can the Minister tell me why his Government are cutting taxes for millionaires instead of helping hard-pressed families in places such as Dudley?

[Sajid Javid]

I think that the hon. Gentleman joined the House in 2005, and he is probably scarred by his experience during his first term in government, when he saw unemployment in his constituency rise substantially, with youth unemployment going up by more than 100%. He will know that paid work is the best way to raise earnings. As I said earlier, this Government have helped to create 1.25 million jobs over the last three years—more jobs in the private sector than at any other time in our history. He referred to tax cuts; the tax cuts that have come through the personal allowance are for the lowest paid.

Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill

Debate between Lord Austin of Dudley and Sajid Javid

Friday 21st January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Perhaps not, but the hon. Gentleman can correct me. He talks about free and fair markets, but he cannot support a Bill providing for a maximum 10% premium on resale and at the same time support free and fair markets. For the record, can he tell us the view of the official Opposition? Do they support the Bill or not?

[Ian Austin]

The hon. Gentleman has obviously not been listening. I said that I completely understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West introduced the Bill. I believe in open, free and fair competition. I want ordinary fans to have proper access to the markets. There is clear evidence of abuse, with suggestions of organised criminal activity, people printing fake tickets and the rest. I am interested in looking at measures that could best deal with such things, opening up markets and ensuring free and fair access for ordinary fans. As I said, my hon. Friend’s proposals might do that, but there are strong views out there, so we should listen to all the experts and take a view. However, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are trying to prevent that debate by talking the Bill out.

[Sajid Javid]

With respect, I am not talking anything out, I am debating.

The hon. Gentleman is not making any sense. It is not clear what he thinks. Presumably, he had time to consider the Bill before coming to the House today. Does he support it or not? The question is straightforward. Hopefully, he can give a straightforward answer.

[Ian Austin]

I support the Bill going into Committee so that it can be examined in detail and we can find solutions to the problems identified by my hon. Friend. That is pretty clear from the three times that I said it.

I am interested in whether registration or membership schemes—selling tickets through clubs—can promote access for ordinary fans. I am interested in how new technology can facilitate the sale or resale of tickets free from fraud and illegitimate or illegal ticket touts. I want to explore how safety and security can be enhanced to tackle people who rip fans off through ticket fraud or online scams—selling tickets they do not have, printing fake tickets or claiming that a ticket is for a seat at the front when it is actually right at the back.

I urge the Government to allow the Bill into Committee, so that we can discuss it, examine the detail, listen to all the experts in sport and the arts, talk to people in the ticket trade and look at how new technology can promote safety and security. As I said, there might be other ways of tackling the problems and safeguarding access to live entertainment and sport.

Times are tough now for ordinary, hard-pressed working families. We have a good case for seeing how we can open up the market and ensure that exciting and enjoyable events are not taken out of the reach of ordinary people. I pay tribute to the extraordinary campaigning energy of my hon. Friend and wish the Bill fair passage to Report. The system is clearly not perfect. The market should be opened up and any illegal or criminal involvement should be tackled.

[Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on bringing the Bill forward. She has raised important issues that are worthy of discussion in the House. My understanding, although I may be corrected, is that the issue has come up before through private Members’ Bills in previous Parliaments. However, in the interests of a full debate, it would be good to make a robust argument against what she proposes.

The Bill is flawed, in that it really does not understand the most basic laws of supply and demand. I do not think that one can buck the free market, or that it is the role of Government to get involved in free transactions. Let me make it clear that the issue is not about fraudulent transactions or criminal activity; as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said earlier, such activity is already illegal. This is about people legitimately getting hold of tickets in an honest way, and not prohibiting them from trying to sell those tickets at a profit, whatever that profit might be. In fact, such activity is probably an excellent example of the enterprise culture and of what a classic entrepreneur does, as long as—I emphasise this point—they get the tickets legitimately.

[Ian Austin]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that there are any problems associated with the secondary market at the moment? Can he guarantee that there is no involvement in criminal activity or fraud, and no online scams? If he cannot guarantee that, does he think that any consideration should be given to dealing with those problems?

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Of course I cannot guarantee that; no one can guarantee that any market is free from criminal activity. The Bill will do nothing to stop criminal or fraudulent activity, because even if one put restrictions on sale prices and made certain practices illegal, it would not mean that any criminal or fraudulent activity going on at the moment would stop.

[Ian Austin]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sajid Javid]

I will in a moment, but I shall just finish answering the hon. Gentleman’s point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

I take the point that my hon. Friend is making, but I have already answered that question.

Ticket resellers act like classic entrepreneurs, because they fill a gap in the market that they have identified. They provide a service that can help people who did not obtain a supply of tickets in the original sale to purchase them for sporting and cultural events. As long as those tickets have been acquired genuinely and lawfully, it is an honest transaction, and there should be no Government restriction on someone’s ability to sell them.

[Ian Austin]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Given that he was unable to guarantee that nothing could be done to improve the primary or secondary markets, will he guarantee that he will not talk out the Bill, so that it can go into Committee and these issues can be discussed properly by Members on both sides of the House?

[Sajid Javid]

I did not say that there could not be any improvements in the system. I have no intention of talking out the Bill, but I cannot guarantee the intentions of other hon. Members.

The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West referred several times to real or genuine fans, and to the fact that they cannot buy tickets because they are priced out of the market. She referred, too, to speculators. I do not understand what she meant by that, as I shall explain, and perhaps she will be able to clarify what she was implying. Her argument sounded far more anti-capitalist than anti-tout.

Let me explain by way of the example of a Wimbledon final. Only 10,000 tickets are available, but demand is three times as high—30,000 people want a ticket, which is not atypical by any means. If the tickets are priced at £20 a head and are sold in a secondary market at five times face value at £100 a head, who is being exploited and how? I assume that the hon. Lady would say that the ticket tout is exploiting people in that example by making a profit of £80.

Perhaps that could be avoided if the club priced the tickets at the outset so that there was not a mismatch between supply and demand by selling them, for example, at £100. If that is what the hon. Lady is suggesting, the corporation or company behind the club or event would make the extra profit. I would have thought that, as a socialist—I assume that she is a socialist—she would welcome the small man or the honest ticket tout who has bought their tickets legitimately and offers them for sale, making a profit for themselves, as opposed to the corporation making those profits.

Let me use a personal example. I was brought up in a part of Bristol called Bedminster. It is a working-class neighbourhood and, as a child, I lived near the Bristol City football ground. Many times at weekends I would pass the ground and see ticket touts trying to sell tickets. I would hear them offering their tickets, sometimes at prices that were multiples of the face value. Many of the touts were ordinary hard-working people. One may not have liked the look of some of them, and they may have seemed unsavoury to some people, but they were ordinary people providing a service in a legitimate way. I would rather be on their side than on the side of the large corporations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

I think the hon. Lady will find that most secondary market sales, such as those on eBay, are exempt from income tax and other such charges. If that is her concern, there is no reason to single out tickets, as opposed to other items that might go on sale in the secondary market. Although she described ticket touts as the salt of the earth, that is not a phrase that I used. I am not suggesting that some of those characters might not look unsavoury or that they might not have a tattoo on their head, for example, but that does not matter. As long as they have tickets that they acquired legitimately and they wish to sell them at a price that is higher than the face value, the Government have no responsibility to intervene.

The interests that the hon. Lady is representing are probably those of the chattering middle classes and champagne socialists, who have no interest in helping the common working man earn a decent living by acting as a middleman in the sale of a proper service.

[Ian Austin]

Setting to one side the ludicrous fantasy that tickets at Bristol City have ever gone at many times their face value, which is a total invention, the hon. Gentleman’s point is interesting. If he is saying that ticket touting ought to be allowed at football games, how could he prevent the admission of people who are subject to banning orders for causing trouble at football, how could he ensure the proper segregation of fans, and how could he guarantee public order in the grounds? He ought to be aware that ticket touting at football is illegal for precisely those public order reasons, as I am sure the Minister will confirm. Has he discussed with the police his desire for ticket touting to be allowed at football, and sought their advice?

[Sajid Javid]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware of the current rules and regulations surrounding the issue. We are debating a Bill that seeks to change those rules and regulations. Perhaps it would be easier if I explained the role of a middleman using an example that is not as sensitive as that of tickets.

The hon. Gentleman may have sold one of his used cars in the past. If he wanted to sell a car, he could try and sell it himself, but most people would try to find a middleman to help with the process. They might go to a car dealer. Their car might be sold for £1,000 to a car dealer. If they learned that the car dealer who purchased their car and helped them went on to sell it a few days later for £1,500, they would not say that the car dealer had ripped them off by £500, because he had provided a service. A middleman in a ticket transaction provides a service no different from that, as long as—I stress this—he had acquired the tickets honestly. That is why we have a secondary market in the sale of tickets and will continue to do so. So long as the individual involved in secondary market transactions has acquired the tickets legitimately, they are providing a service that deserves to be rewarded.

The hon. Lady should understand, as has not been made clear today, that not everyone has the time to queue for a ticket, or leads a well-regulated life or knows months in advance, when tickets might go on sale, whether they can attend an event, and not everyone knows privileged insiders who can get hold of tickets that would otherwise be difficult to obtain. However, everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, has money. If a person wishes to devote a large part of their disposable income to see something that is disproportionately attractive to them, why should anyone else care and why should it be their business?

The hon. Lady seems to believe that touts are ruthless exploiters whom no one in civilised society should countenance. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the tout has come by his tickets in an honest way and offers a genuine service with a real risk of loss in the pursuit of profit, that is not a problem. As someone who believes passionately in the virtues of the free market and who is on the side of the ordinary, common working man, I respectfully oppose the Bill.