Business of the House

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

That Standing Order 40(4) and (5) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Thursday 31 October so far as it is necessary to enable notices and orders relating to Public Bills and Affirmative Instruments to have precedence over other notices and orders that day; and that, in the event of the Northern Ireland Budget Bill being brought from the House of Commons and read a first time, Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with to allow that Bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the second Business of the House Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper. The second Motion relates to tomorrow. It will allow us to pass the Northern Ireland Budget Bill, which is likely to be certified as a money Bill, in one day and adjust the order in which other business is taken. A speakers’ list for the Northern Ireland Budget Bill’s Second Reading is now open. Noble Lords will have until 6 pm this evening to add their names. The important debate on the Phase 1 report from the Grenfell inquiry will be taken in the Chamber after the Northern Ireland Budget Bill and debates on two statutory instruments. The debate on international development will not take place tomorrow. This Business of the House Motion ensures that essential legislation on public expenditure in Northern Ireland can reach the statute book before the Dissolution of Parliament. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

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[Lord McAvoy]

I am sorry to intervene yet again, but it has just been confirmed that Parliament will sit next Monday and Tuesday. Does that not give us all the opportunity to get the Bill done?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, the Opposition Chief Whip, who confirmed that the usual channels are working well. I am always happy to talk to him—as we have done in the past few days.

The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hain, would raise the possibility of taking the remaining stages of the historical institutional abuse Bill tomorrow as well. I acknowledge the comments from around the House and the way the noble Lord, Lord Hain, set out his manuscript amendment. I assure the House that the Government take seriously the issues that the Bill addresses and are fully committed to delivering the compensation scheme. The importance that we attach to it is demonstrated by the fact that it was one of the first Bills introduced after the Queen’s Speech, and the Second Reading was on Monday.

As a consequence of the decision by the House of Commons to have an early general election, however, parliamentary time is now very limited. Unfortunately, there is simply not enough time for the Bill to pass through both Houses before Dissolution on 6 November. The Bill has only had its Second Reading in this House, and even if it were to go through all three remaining stages in this House it would still have to be considered by the House of Commons. Although I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, that this Bill has cross-party support, I am sorry that, on the grounds of practicality, I cannot agree to the noble Lord’s request. I ask him, therefore, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, my noble friend the Opposition Chief Whip has said that the news from the other end has changed, and we are now not going to prorogue on Thursday night, in which case there is a lot more time at the other end than was previously thought. Will the noble Lord, the Chief Whip, tell us, therefore, what the situation is with regard to Dissolution and the time available to deal with this legislation?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

One thing I have found since I started this job very recently is that it is a full-time task keeping up with the business of this House, let alone that of the House of Commons: that is not in my gift. If it is true, however—I have not been informed about it yet—then the House of Commons has more time than if we had adjourned on Thursday, so more time for this Bill is certainly a possibility. I cannot, however, make decisions about House of Commons timing while on my feet at the Dispatch Box. I am perfectly happy to talk to the usual channels, as I did before, but this is not the time and place to accept the noble Lord’s amendment.

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[Lord McAvoy]

We will support my noble friend Lord Hain’s amendment.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Nobody can accuse the noble Lord of not being able to think on his feet. I would like to be able to support the amendment, but, at the moment, we would like to leave it so that I am able to talk. The issue is not whether the Bill has time to get through this House; it is whether it has time to get through the House of Commons. I am not in a position to agree that they—having, for example, elected a Speaker—will have time. If they do not have time, which was the position when I came into this Chamber—

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I have not finished yet.

If the House of Commons has time and we are told that the situation has changed, of course I am open to discussions on that, but I cannot do it without confirmation from the House of Commons.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords—

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[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I have just taken the initiative of calling the House of Commons to see what their situation is. I can only tell your Lordships what I have been informed, which is that a decision has not as yet been made, and that Monday and Tuesday are still a possibility. That may be helpful.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I have accepted that there is widespread feeling in the House on this. As I said, a lot depends on the House of Commons. It would be silly to spend a lot of time on this if we knew that it would not get through the House of Commons. If the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment, I will agree to talk to the usual channels and, if necessary, he could bring back his amendment tomorrow—or we may not even need an amendment. Is he happy to accept that?

[Lord Hain]

My Lords, I appreciate the dilemma and predicament that the Chief Whip is in; I am not having an argument with him. There is no argument across this House about the principle. I would hope that in pressing the amendment to a vote, as I intend to do, I would be helping him and the whole House provide leadership on this matter. The House of Commons needs to follow suit and support the victims concerned.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s suggested help. It is better if we follow the normal procedure, which is to agree these things between the usual channels. We have understood. I have agreed to talk to the usual channels tomorrow. I leave it up to him whether he will accept that and press his amendment or not.

[Lord Hain]

My Lords, I wish to press this to a Division.