Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Agnew of Oulton Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 20th April 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

73: After Clause 106, insert the following new Clause—
“Publication of information about trustees
In section 22(1) of the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022 (material unavailable for inspection), omit paragraph (c).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would enable Companies House to publish the names of parties to trusts which own Overseas entities in the Register of Overseas Entities. Currently Companies House collects this information but does not publish it.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I probably ought to start by checking with my noble friend the Minister and his officials that his own amendment, Amendment 76H, does not solve the problem that I am seeking to solve. That will be a very quick answer from my noble friend if it does. It is Amendment 76H—I am slightly flummoxed by section numbers, clauses and subsections.

I will explain to the Committee why the amendment is important. Companies House now collects the information that I am keen for us to have more visibility of, but it does not publish it. I am asking simply that we allow for the information being collected to be published. The register of overseas entities that has just been created is working. I agree with all the comments made a few moments ago about most people involved in business being honest, but this Bill focuses on bad people.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly appreciate the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, flagging so well the sentence that I was about to deliver. I would like to investigate further, personally as a Minister and for the benefit of this Committee, a more detailed assessment of the crime-fighting efforts that we will employ around this.

I have some good information to impart to the Committee, which to some extent answers the questions. I have particularly looked into the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, about the UAE and so on. We have signed an anti-corruption pledge or framework with the UAE in the last few years. We have in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office—

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

Can I just finish this particular flow of information, because I will cease to remember it if I do not get it out? I believe we have 12 Foreign Office crime experts located around the world. One of them is in the UAE, for example, and we work very hard with those countries that sit on the so-called grey list. It is important to note this. I am aware, as a Minister and a consumer, that the value and brand of a jurisdiction are extremely important. It is not effective for companies to operate easily in jurisdictions that have been classified as at risk or on the grey list.

There is clearly a hierarchy of regulatory power or brand, with the UK at the very top. When dealing with international companies, I personally always look at where a company is registered. If it is registered in the UK, we hope that the brand will grow to be even more enhanced; if it is registered in a jurisdiction about which you have doubts or that has been highlighted as at risk, it makes a significant difference to how you treat that information and the brand of that business.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

Given my noble friend the Minister’s commitment to give us some data on the whole disclosure exercise that has happened following the first economic crime Act, he mentioned that there has been a high level of compliance. We are all delighted with that, but my worry—to the point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux—is what that actually means.

Transparency International estimates that there are at least 7,000 entities on which no light at all will be shed. In my example, JTC (Suisse) SA is a registered overseas entity. We now have that information but it means absolutely nothing, because beneath it is a cascade of other entities that we seem to have no visibility on. When the Minister puts together his reporting suite, can he let us know how many are essentially just a number or a name on a piece of paper?

Perhaps I should have raised this earlier, but in our very useful briefing with officials on Monday they explained that the ROE was set up specifically for property, and therefore a lot of the enforcement was around property assets. Property—real estate—is of course a much easier concept to deal with than the rest of the things we are talking about in commerce. A piece of paper or digital ownership of a share is much harder. I am interested to know what enforcement will happen for those much more invisible assets.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am constantly grateful to my noble friend Lord Agnew for his interventions and thoughtful input. I am pleased to say that we have to look forward—unfortunately not today, but maybe next week—to the section on crypto assets and similar assets. I believe that we have made great headway; this is technical and complex, and we welcome interventions and input from this Committee and anyone else that will allow us to more effectively police that area. I am very much on my noble friend’s side on this. It was certainly worth him mentioning that the register of overseas entities relates to property, which is true. I cannot comment on the specific case that he raises, but the assumption is that the data will be checked and verified. The whole point is that a registered overseas entity has to conform to our people with significant control regime and so on. That will allow us to make that assessment. I will confirm to the Committee what we are going to do in terms of reporting against that data.

As I say, there was a discussion earlier in the week about the budgetary allocations for economic crime fighting. It is very important that we show this House, and the nation at large, how much money the Government are putting into this area and how seriously we take it. I am proud of our record and want to put together a strong case to show your Lordships what we are doing. Can more resources be allocated to anything? All of us here have experience, if we have been in government, and of course it is possible. But the fact is that if I look magnitudinously over the last few years at the attention placed on this subject and the money put into it, it is a completely different story from, say, 2010—and for good reasons. It has become crucially apparent that the world has changed, and we need to react to that.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am not surprised that the noble Lord and a Member of this Committee has corrected me on that specific point; my tone may have been misunderstood. However, I hope he understood what I was trying to get at when I differentiated trusts from corporate entities or corporations themselves. They do business, and they must be regulated. If I could differentiate my language again, between a debate and a discussion, I am very keen to have a discussion with Members of this Committee about this matter, so we can certainly get diaries out and find a time over the coming weeks to look into this in more detail. It is a very important debate to have, and I would welcome as many participants in the industry as possible to join us in that discussion.

Given what I have said and the fact that this is being actively explored by the Government, please do not think that this discussion is somehow being shut down. As I say, this policy area is controlled by the Treasury, and it is very specific about that. I am comfortable that we will have the powers in this Bill to have the flexibility to ensure that we can, when the decision is taken, provide the right amount of transparency around trusts. As a result, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, with very deep reluctance, I will withdraw it, but I want to leave on the record that the self-proclaimed “very good” Amendment 76H could be truly excellent if the Government added the simple two-line sentence that I have offered in my amendment. I suggest that there are rarely times in legislation where so much can be achieved with so little and so quickly.

Amendment 73 withdrawn.

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[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendments and want to make a couple of points. First, it is not a very ambitious request that we are making of these territories: simply that they have proper anti-money laundering processes in place. If we link it to my own amendment, which I have withdrawn, we are now in a position where we have no knowledge of the ultimate owner of many of those assets and no reassurance that there is any anti-money laundering going on.

Secondly, we need to remember that it is our reputation being damaged by these territories which are not stepping up to the plate, because they are using the principles of English law and that is how they are making a very good living out of it. I again ask my noble friend the Minister what is happening to move this along. It has been sitting around for a long time and it is damaging the reputation of this country.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, I have an interest to declare in that I am presently instructed by the Government of the Isle of Man in a legal matter. Under the new rules of the House, that is declared specifically in my entry in the register—I have just been checking. It is not a very exciting piece of work: I am required to report to the Isle of Man Government on the state of their legal services sector—I know that many of you will be very jealous of that exciting piece of work. One thing that the Isle of Man is particularly keen to have recognised is that it is an independent jurisdiction. Yes, the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man share through the Lord of Mann—namely, the sovereign—a head of state. Yes, it shares many of the legal traditions and concepts that we recognise in this jurisdiction, but it is a separate jurisdiction. It has its own parliament; indeed, its parliament is probably older than this one: the Tynwald. I have received instructions, not recently but in the past, from states within the Channel Islands and from British Overseas Territories. They are all fiercely proud of their independence as separate jurisdictions. I fully understand the points and the thrust of the arguments made by noble Lords who have spoken ahead of me, but we need to be careful about how we approach extending the ambit of this legislation.

To look as though we are retaining some sort of colonial mastership over those fiercely proud and independent jurisdictions is not a good look. It does not matter whether you are in the BVI, the Cayman Islands, Guernsey, Jersey or the Isle of Man; we just need to tread politely, quietly and with consensus. I accept that noble Lords have said that this has been going on for far too long and it is time that the UK Government got their act together and started to do something about it. Of course, that would be the ideal, but, often, the best is the enemy of the good. I want the Minister to know that although this is a forum in which he might seem, from time to time, on his own, he is not. No matter of which party we are or whether we do not belong to any party at all, we are trying to achieve workable legislation which is not only comprehensive and comprehensible but carries the respect of the people against whom it might bite, because law which is not respected is law which does not have any value or purpose.

If my noble friend the Minister sometimes thinks that he is the only man standing at the gate as the barbarian hordes—the noble barbarian hordes—assail him, would he please accept from me that he has our personal friendship and our professional respect? I am sure that this sentiment covers the whole of the Committee. We know the difficult job that he is doing so please, when we come to discuss this amendment, will he accept from me that I understand it is not easy to tell the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the British Overseas Territories that they must do what this Parliament says?

There will therefore be many discussions, it seems to me, between his department, the FCDO and the Treasury with their counterparts in these various jurisdictions. If we can bring them with us, as opposed to clobbering them with unilateral legislation, we will achieve a much longer lasting result—albeit that I entirely accept the purpose of the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle. Here at least, going with and coming alongside, as opposed to hitting head-on, is the way to go forward.

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Moved by

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

74: After Clause 133, insert the following new Clause—
“Limited partnerships: registration of persons of significant control
(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision about the registration of persons of significant control in relation to limited partnerships. (2) For the purposes of regulations under this section, “persons of significant control” may include persons with a right to—(a) 25% or more of the surplus assets on winding up,(b) a voting share of 25% or more,(c) appoint or remove the majority of managers,(d) exercise significant influence or control over the business, or(e) exercise significant influence or control over a firm which would be a person of significant control if it were an individual.(3) No regulations to which this section applies may be made unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing the regulations (whether or not together with other provisions) has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment creates an obligation on the Secretary of State to make new provisions for Limited Partnerships to be brought into the PSC register. This is intended to improve transparency in relation to Limited Partnerships in line with companies.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I will treat Amendments 74 to 76 together because they all try to achieve the same thing: to ensure a similar level of transparency for limited partnerships, limited liability partnerships and Scottish limited partnerships as we are trying to achieve for companies.

I had a brief discussion with my noble friend the Minister before we started, and he felt that I was flawed in my approach. I absolutely recognise that he has a more formidable intellect than I have and has at his disposal a very accomplished drafting team. I may not have the amendments exactly right, so I would rather consider them more as probing amendments to understand why we cannot not have the same level of transparency for these entities as we have for companies.

One of the points my noble friend made was that you should not have to have a natural person as one of the partners. My answer is that, if you do not, you are back to my original Amendment 73, because you just cascade off into another miasma of entities where there is no transparency. I would be interested to hear from the Minister how we will sort out this problem if my amendments are not adequate.

I have an example of an LLP, Atlas Integrate Services LLP, that was incorporated in September 2018, where the person of significant control was two months old. My noble friend said he wished his own children were showing such entrepreneurial flair so early in their careers. This person was also married at two months but, more importantly, the incorporation document stated:

“This person holds the right, directly or indirectly, to appoint or remove a majority of the persons who are entitled to take part in the management of the LLP”.


Will the Bill get rid of that sort of behaviour? That is my concern at the moment. There are apparently some 4,000 beneficial owners across the database who are aged two or less. This is an issue, and perhaps the brave new world of the Bill will eliminate it. I would be grateful for reassurance that that will happen or to hear what the plan is.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

Do we have some artificial intelligence in the Civil Service Box? I think that we have natural persons’ intelligence. While I have this opportunity—I am sure that I say this on behalf of the Committee—I would like to say that the officials behind this Bill are extremely hard-working and focused; they have done everything they can to deliver a very complex piece of legislation. They have been very helpful to me and my colleagues personally and to the Ministers taking the Bill through the other place. I hope noble Lords feel that they have interacted with them appropriately. I know that they continue to stand ready to support us as we craft what I think is a magnitudinous piece of legislation that will have significant positive ramifications in the decades ahead.

I turn to the amendments presented by my noble friend Lord Agnew. I have taken advice on elements of them and their technical relevance to the Bill so, when the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, suggested that they were somehow not relevant, that was a private, legal and specific statement; it was not a philosophical one. They are very relevant to the Bill and at the core of much of what we are trying to establish: who is behind the companies and corporate entities?

The comment from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about the ownership of property following the Grenfell Tower tragedy is a very good example. We hope that the reforms that we are making will ensure that we know who is behind corporate activity and ownership of property in this country. We have made huge strides in doing so and the Bill is very important. That is not to say that it cannot be improved but, where we feel we are including these principles, we do not suggest that noble Lords unnecessarily improve it further or confuse it. I rely to some extent on the draftsmen who advised me on this; I hope that the Committee sees this as well intentioned, in the way it is being presented.

I will first speak to Amendment 74. I commend my noble friend’s intention to increase the transparency of limited partnerships. I stress again that there is a difference between a limited partnership in Scotland, a limited partnership in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, a limited liability partnership across the United Kingdom and a limited company. They all operate slightly differently in the different jurisdictions. Please bear this in mind, as we have drafted this legislation to ensure that we have transparency across all the different concepts and principles in the right way.

I know that my noble friend Lord Agnew shares the same concerns that Dame Margaret Hodge has expressed previously. I have had the privilege of meeting her personally, as well as hearing her views, which have been extremely helpful in informing my knowledge base around this debate.

The proposed new clause would duplicate the Scottish Partnerships (Register of People with Significant Control) Regulations 2017. Scottish limited partnerships have legal personality, as noble Lords will know, which means that, among other things, they are able to own assets, enter into contracts and hold bank accounts. This results in a greater degree of opacity around Scottish limited partnerships, which is one of the features that the Bill is specifically designed to tackle.

However, as noble Lords will know, English, Welsh and Northern Irish limited partnerships are required to register with Companies House. While they are, they do not possess a legal personality separate from that of their partners. This means that it is the general partners themselves who transact on behalf of the partners. One of our senior officials likened it to a marriage, if that helps to clarify that point, in the sense that, if you are married and you own a home, the marriage does not own the home, nor does the couple; the partners—the husband and wife—own the property. I hope that that makes it clearer to some extent; it certainly did for me, although I will not go into my own home ownership percentages during this debate.

I stress that this Government completely agree with the principle that we should have greater transparency over who is managing and controlling a limited partnership. There is much in the Bill that will achieve exactly that. This is very important. I know that my noble friend Lord Agnew and the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Fox—indeed, all noble Lords in the Committee—take this extremely seriously. In fact, it is the core principle of the Bill, which includes, to go back to the specific moment, a range of measures that will make it mandatory for limited partnerships to submit a much greater range of information about their partners, including their current and former names, addresses and dates of birth.

The general partners of limited partnerships who have management responsibility—there is, of course, a difference—will be required to have their identities verified. Where a general partner is a corporate entity, it must name a managing officer with a verified identity who can be contacted about the limited partnership. That is very important as well and goes significantly further.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

Can my noble friend confirm that all the information he has just listed will be available for public inspection so that we do not get back into this cul-de-sac of my earlier concerns?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I believe that I can confirm that but I will ensure that those facts are properly presented. It is clearly helpful for us to be specific on that.

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I look forward to further discussions on this issue in future, but I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for his comprehensive answer. He has been very reassuring.

I just want to re-emphasise the important points made by the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Fox, about the principle of accountability. If we go back to my slightly specious example of the two month-old child, we have the identity of that child so we have transparency but where is the accountability? That is what I am worried about. However, I accept that my noble friend is committed to both transparency and accountability and believes that this Bill, accompanied by the other partnerships Bill that he mentioned, will deliver them, so I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 74 withdrawn.

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[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to the three amendments in my name in this group, Amendments 77AA, 77C and 77D. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, for her support for the latter two. This group addresses flaws in the original economic crime legislation, the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act, and makes improvements to it. That Act was rushed through as emergency business, so I welcome the Government making these improvements, and I hope that the noble Lord recognises that my amendments are trying to do the same thing.

The noble Lord has said several times now that his Amendment 76H is very good. I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, that it is very good but could be so much better if this information was made public by default—but we have already been there.

With these amendments, I acknowledge that I am revisiting discussions that we had during the passage of the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act, and I apologise to noble Lords who may feel a sense of déjà vu in that respect. Normally, I would not revisit things that we have already discussed, but I am relying on the very clear commitment from the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, who reassured us at the time that we would be able to use this Bill as an opportunity to revisit matters that would perhaps have been the subject of Divisions in less of an emergency situation than last time. I remind noble Lords that he specifically indicated a willingness to revisit the matter that my amendments in this group are trying to address. So, while it is unusual to come back to the same thing, that is why I feel justified in doing so.

Amendments 77C and 77D are aimed at removing an anomaly, or loophole, in the overseas entities register. Amendment 77AA, which is an amendment to the Minister’s Amendment 77A, follows on from the same issue. Currently, if the details on the overseas entities register are changed—for example, if there is a change in beneficial ownership—that needs to be updated on the register only annually. This means that a person could register an entity, filing all the necessary details, and could then change the ownership or other details the very next day, but they would not need to inform the registrar until the end of the year. In my view, that is an unacceptable length of time for a register to remain out of date and inaccurate. Properties could be bought and sold during that period, without anyone knowing who is really behind those transactions.

As a comparison, the PSC rules require an update within 14 days of the company becoming aware of a change. Amendment 77C aims to bring the overseas entities register into line with the PSC register and require an update within the same 14 days. This amendment is identical to one that I tried to put to the previous Bill.

This matters for two reasons. The whole point of the register is to ensure that we know who the beneficial owner of the property held by the overseas entity is. If the information can be up to a year out of date that means we do not know. More importantly, this could lead to the risk of an innocent party who buys a property from an overseas entity unwittingly enriching a criminal or sanctioned person. That cannot be desirable.

The argument against accepting this amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, made last time we debated it was that, if there was a 14-day updating duty, a person buying a property from an overseas entity could not know if the entity would be in breach of the updating requirement. Because of the way the Act works, that could mean that the innocent party might not be able to register ownership of the property that they acquired. That is obviously very serious and it is a valid concern, which is why I did not push the matter last time round.

However, the Act actually includes a solution, in that it is possible for an overseas entity to shorten the annual reporting period, so a purchaser of the property could make it a condition of the purchase that the entity shortens the period and files an update before the purchase goes ahead. That would solve the problem, but I acknowledge that that requires the purchaser to be well advised and puts the onus on the purchaser, which is not right.

This time round, I have tried to address that problem by tabling Amendment 77D, which would require that, before an overseas entity can enter into an agreement to buy or sell a UK property, it must update the register no more than 14 days before entering into such an agreement. That would both safeguard any innocent purchaser and, combined with Amendment 77C, ensure that the register is kept up to date in the same way as the PSC rules are. I hope that would solve the problem that the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, highlighted last time round so that we can bring the overseas entities register into line with the PSC register to ensure that it is kept up to date and is not up to 12 months out of date at any one time.

Amendment 77AA aims to close the same loophole when an overseas entity applies to be deregistered. I welcome the Minister’s Amendment 77A—he said that I was nodding enthusiastically and he was right—but although that amendment would require any outstanding updates to be made before an entity can be deregistered, the same loophole exists. If no update is pending, the information on the register could be a whole year out of date because there is no requirement to update the register for a year.

Amendment 77AA would simply add a requirement that an entity should make a statement that the information on the register is up to date and accurate before deregistration can be accepted. That seems an incredibly simple way of ensuring that the register is up to date before the deregistration can happen, which is important.

I hope the Minister will see these amendments as helpful and intended to improve the overseas entities register, to remove a loophole and to make it the same as the PSC rules. It is very hard to see why it should not be. I hope he feels able to accept them.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I strongly support these very sensible proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which really show why hereditary Peers still have such an important role in this House. It will be very interesting to hear from my noble friend the Minister why he might wish to dismiss these amendments, because they make such a lot of sense: if you are buying from one of these opaque entities, why should all the responsibility lie with the buyer, not the seller?

[Lord Macpherson of Earl’s Court (CB)]

My Lords, I will very briefly support the proposals. It makes sense to ensure that people who think that they are buying something legitimately are adequately informed. I like the series of amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, to solve the problem that was pointed out on a previous day.

The fact is that those of us involved with companies and so on regularly have to update the Companies House register very quickly indeed. Fortunately, because of modern technology, that is relatively easy to do. Similarly, we have to update our register of interests on a regular basis, so I see no reason why this should not apply in this important, specific case.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for his question, which I am not able to answer as conclusively as he might wish. There may be alternative mechanisms to approach this if so desired, and if the Government believe it is the way forward and the House decides accordingly. I hope the Committee will forgive my language at the Dispatch Box and that they hear the tone of—

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend but, given that he is now embarking on an intellectual journey on this subject and that we are not sure when that journey may conclude, I want to add a couple of nuances. First, he is right to ask what the unintended consequences are of introducing a new step. I accept that that needs to be challenged but, to give a simple example, if you are buying a property and the conveyance has dragged on a while, I think the buyer is required to carry out further searches at the last minute to ensure that a new Tube line has not suddenly been announced under the building they are buying. There is a mechanism to do it.

The other area of interest to me goes back to the point I made earlier about the great things that have been achieved with the register of overseas entities, with its high level of compliance. None the less, Transparency International thinks that there may be up to 7,000 entities and that, although we might know their names, we do not know what they really are. The proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, would flush them out before the sale. I am sure that HMRC might be very interested in a lot of these organisations, so there would be a beneficial element which has not necessarily been thought about at the moment. I would like my noble friend to add to that to his contemplation.