Grenfell Tower Inquiry: Phase 1 Report

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my predecessor in my role, my noble friend Lord Bourne, for initiating this debate on the Grenfell Tower inquiry phase 1 report. I, and the whole House, know that he understands these matters so well, and I am now honoured to respond.

It is fitting that my noble friend Lady Sanderson of Welton made her heartfelt maiden speech in this House today. I pay tribute to her for her tireless work in the aftermath of the tragedy, building a strong relationship with the Grenfell community on behalf of the previous Prime Minister and ensuring that those impacted received the critical support that they needed. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Woolley of Woodford, a tireless campaigner for social and racial equality, and the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, a renowned QC in the field of industrial relations and employment law, for their maiden speeches in this House, which were both excellent and had some serious messages. We will no doubt hear much more from them in future, and from my noble friend, as they make their mark in this Chamber.

Over two years have passed since the tragedy that shook the nation, but the 72 people who died following those horrific events will for ever remain in our thoughts and prayers. All those who lost loved ones and their homes deserve to know why the Grenfell Tower fire happened. Yesterday’s publication of the report was an important step in this regard. I take this opportunity to thank Sir Martin Moore-Bick and the inquiry team for their work, both in producing this report and in preparing for the next phase of hearings. It provides some comfort that, as we have heard today, the report is widely regarded as thorough, informative and, as the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, said, forensic.

It was important for the Government to establish this as a full independent public inquiry. It has been able to establish, first, what happened on the night of the fire; secondly, how emergency services responded; and, thirdly, how the building was so dangerously exposed to the risk of fire. We were clear that the inquiry should leave no stone unturned, no matter how uncomfortable the facts. The people of the Grenfell community must be allowed to learn the truth behind that appalling loss of life and how it was allowed to happen. They deserve nothing less.

My noble friend Lord Bourne and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, asked about criminal charges and how many people have been interviewed under caution. It is not for the Government to comment on an ongoing criminal investigation, but I can say that the Metropolitan Police continues to investigate the causes of this terrible tragedy, needing to take into account the work of the inquiry, including this report and the next.

I take a moment to commend the bereaved, the survivors and everyone affected by this tragedy. We will never truly understand all that the victims of this tragedy went through. My noble friend Lady Sanderson mentioned the essential need for change. She is right. Let there be no doubt: our commitment to ensure change is unwavering.

Noble Lords will know that the phase 1 report is focused on what happened that fateful night, and particularly on the response of the emergency services. Let me be clear in my message today, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lord Porter. I also pay tribute to the heroism and bravery of those who responded to the fire: running towards danger, some more than once, entering a burning building and saving lives that night.

Sadly, heroism alone could not counter a fire of this nature, and Sir Martin outlines several significant shortcomings in the London Fire Brigade’s response. Clearly, there are lessons for our fire services from this tragedy and from this report. Crucially, he identifies the failure to change the “stay put” advice once it became clear that it was no longer the correct strategy. However, as Sir Martin said in the report:

“Effective compartmentation is likely to remain at the heart of fire safety strategy and will probably continue to provide a safe basis for responding to the vast majority of fires in high-rise buildings.”


The Government already took action on this issue following the Lakanal House fire, in particular by working with the sector to review national guidance on high-rise firefighting, including the “stay put” policy and evacuation. This was carried out both before and after the coroner’s findings in 2013.

As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State highlighted in the other place, the Government, along with the National Fire Chiefs Council and others, will continue to review the “stay put” advice to ensure that lessons are learned. We have already completed a call for evidence and published a summary of the responses, which showed consensus that “stay put” was the right approach but for buildings correctly designed, built and maintained.

The noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, raised some important points about communications—the noble Lord particularly asked about mobile telephones. This must indeed be part of our work with the National Fire Chiefs Council. I will ensure that that issue is raised, if it is not already part of its considerations. I acknowledge those important points.

I am also acutely aware that the report concludes there were significant failings in both the construction and design of the building. I want to be clear today that we plan to accept in principle all the recommendations that Sir Martin makes for central government.

My noble friend Lord Bourne and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, asked about legislation. We will work with stakeholders to deliver that. That will include proposing legislation ahead of the Hackitt reforms, if that would mean that the recommendations can be implemented sooner. Our task must now be to consider how we can best implement the recommendations quickly and build on the work we have already done to ensure that people are safe in their homes.

To answer my noble friend Lord Porter’s question about the decision for phase 1 to focus on the events of the night, I must stress that the order of the independent reports is very much a matter for the chairman. I can only point to Sir Martin’s statement, in which he said that,

“there is an urgent need to find out what aspects of the building’s design and construction”,

led to the disaster, and to,

“understand the chain of events”,

of the night,

“in some detail”—

and, as such, find out what steps must be taken so that those who live in other high-rise buildings are safe.

The noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Stunell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made points about timings and urgency. That certainly chimes with me. The Government did not wait for the publication of this report, or the hearings to begin on the phase 2 inquiry, to press ahead with strengthening building and fire safety measures.

My noble friend Lord Bourne asked about high-rise buildings. The department has already consulted on proposals to apply higher standards to new high-rise residential buildings, including on sprinklers, signage and communication systems, which are now also a recommendation of the inquiry.

My noble friend also asked about the height at which buildings are considered to be high-rise. Although the consultation proposes a height of 18 metres, the Secretary of State has been clear that the Government will follow the evidence, should the height threshold need to be changed.

[Lord Adonis]

The Minister mentioned my remarks and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. The House of Commons committee recommended:

“The Government should set a realistic, but short, deadline by which time all buildings with any form of dangerous cladding should be fully remediated”.


Can the Minister tell us what date the Government intend to set?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

There is a lot of detail in what I want to say; I will come on to cladding. I also point out to the noble Lord that much of what we are doing must be regarded as part of a holistic approach so, on timetables, there may not be one particular date by which everything is done. It is a very complex process.

Soon after the fire, in July 2017, the Government commissioned Dame Judith Hackitt to conduct a review of building and fire safety. Noble Lords will recall that we have already agreed to take forward the recommendations of Dame Judith’s report in full as the basis for regulatory reforms in building and fire safety. Our comprehensive building safety programme, announced in the recent Queen’s Speech in the form of a Bill, will bring about a radically new building and fire safety system by: establishing a new regulatory framework; creating greater accountability and responsibility; issuing sanctions to tackle irresponsible behaviour by those responsible for buildings; and giving residents a stronger voice.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham referred to social housing. It is important that we improve quality and quantity, with a beneficial knock-on effect on health. We have committed to taking forward the social housing White Paper at pace. It will set out proposals for the standards that we set for social homes. We remain committed to increasing the supply of social housing, committing more than £9 billion as part of our affordable homes programme and delivering more than 250,000 homes by 2022.

Of course, we have had to take urgent steps in the interim to ensure that people are safe today. Much of this work has been around cladding. First, we have banned the use of combustible materials on high-rise homes and identified all buildings over 18 metres with unsafe ACM cladding.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked whether gas should no longer be used in high-rise buildings. It is an interesting point. I cannot answer her question easily today, but I can say that the Government have signalled their intention to prohibit the use of fossil fuels such as gas in new homes by 2025 for reasons of environmental protection.

Secondly, we have established a comprehensive programme to oversee the remediation of unsafe ACM cladding, providing £600 million of funding to support this work. My noble friend Lord Young and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about the funding; it is beyond the £200 million that the Government are putting forward for private residential high-rise remediation. Both noble Lords asked what would happen if the costs go beyond this. I can confirm that the money set aside is an estimate and that plans are in place, should it become necessary, to revisit that estimate.

I am pleased that all social sector residential buildings with ACM cladding either have had the cladding removed, are undergoing work to remove it or, at the very least, have had such work scheduled. We have pushed on every front to ensure that the work is completed quickly, and today only a handful of building owners have yet to confirm their intention to remediate the ACM cladding on their buildings.

We have now completed remediation work on 61 buildings in the social sector, have begun work on a further 81 buildings and are working hard to ensure that remediation is completed on the remaining 16 buildings as soon as possible. My noble friend Lord Young asked about progress on this. As of October, only 10 of the 89 private sector buildings in scope of the fund have yet to engage. We will continue to put pressure on developers and building owners to get on with remediation. In response to a number of questions he raised, I will shortly provide a letter detailing the take-up of the private sector remediation fund and set out a fuller picture of the remediation figures, as well as the responsibilities of leaseholders and freeholders. As the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government made clear yesterday in the other place, there will be consequences for any building owners not making clear progress, including naming and shaming and enforcement action.

Thirdly, interim measures are in place in high-rise buildings with ACM cladding to ensure that all residents remain safe. We are working at pace to review different parts of the building safety regime. We have now completed testing on non-ACM cladding panels and are analysing the results, which will be released in the coming months.

We have recently launched a consultation on the use of sprinklers in all new residential buildings over 18 metres—a point that was raised in the debate. It also seeks responses on evacuation alert systems and improved signage, which was raised by my noble friend Lord Bourne and others. The consultation will close in November. My noble friend Lord Bourne also asked about fire doors. On the advice of the independent expert panel, the Government conducted an investigation and testing programme of glass reinforced plastic composite fire doors, leading to their withdrawal from the market. Following this, the Association of Composite Door Manufacturers has committed to deliver an industry- led remediation plan, which has our full support.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about product safety, which was part of my old brief when I worked in the former BIS, now BEIS. In May 2018, an independent investigation into the Whirlpool fridge-freezer involved in Grenfell Tower confirmed that there was no need for further action, and BEIS supports its conclusion that no product recall other than corrective action is required. People who own that particular model can continue to use it as normal. The noble Lord also raised a point about electrical safety checks. Existing legislation already requires landlords to keep electrical installations in safe working order. However, the Government have reviewed the issue and have now committed to introducing mandatory five-yearly electrical safety inspections. I am confident that these steps will help us boost safety and transform the way we build in the future.

We have also been working across government to co-ordinate action on fire safety. First, the newly established fire protection board provides a bridge across the Home Office, my department, MHCLG, local government authorities and the National Fire Chiefs Council. The board will provide greater assurance that fire safety risks in high-rise residential buildings with ACM cladding are being identified, managed and properly recorded. It will oversee an increase in inspections and audits of high-risk buildings, and we have already signalled our commitment to getting this right by pledging £10 million a year. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said in September in the other place, he expects,

“all high-rise buildings to have been inspected or assured by the time the new building safety regime is in place, or no later than 2021”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/9/19; col. 373.]

Secondly, the Home Office has run a call for evidence, alongside MHCLG’s Building a Safer Future consultation, on the fire safety order. This consultation seeks to ensure that the order remains effective and works as a whole with the new regulatory regime and other existing legislation. The call for evidence closed on 31 July and we are now analysing the responses.

Thirdly, the Home Office has established an independent Fire Standards Board, which should not be confused with the FPB, and has provided £1.5 million of funding to support its work. The board is supported by the National Fire Chiefs Council’s Central Programme Office to support continuous improvement of fire and rescue services. The board will be responsible for the development of a high-quality useable framework of professional standards, aligned to the work of the National Fire Chiefs Council and its national initiatives. It is clear from the report’s findings that this Government need to be playing an active role in supporting the sector through the fire reform programme.

In July 2017, the then Home Secretary expanded the remit of HMIC to establish Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services. This move sought to highlight areas for continuous improvement of good practice for fire and rescue services and to increase transparency for the communities they serve. The inspectorate has now completed inspections of all 45 FRSs in England and has published reports on 30 of them. We expect reports on the remaining 15 to be published shortly, alongside the inspectorate’s first “state of fire” reports.

Neighbourhood Services: Government Support

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for securing this debate and all noble Lords for their remarks. This is my first debate in my new role, although I have covered the department in the past as a Whip. I am, however, only too aware of the experience of the noble Lord in local government. If there is a verb “to Pendle”, the noble Lord could be described as a “much-Pendled” Peer. I am also aware of the experience and knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, in this sector and the length of time that he has spent in his role on the Front Bench.

All types of local authorities play a central role in supporting communities, including the most vulnerable, across the country, and district councils are at the heart of delivering many of the key services that matter to communities. We have heard a lot about that today. We are grateful for the transformative changes they have championed and for their continued commitment to providing the day-to-day services that their residents rely on. The Government make it a priority to visit councils—including, I understand, Pendle this month—in order to see the issues and opportunities at first hand.

I want to be clear that it is not only upper-tier authorities that are a priority for this Government: we want all authorities, regardless of size, to know that their concerns are being heard. However, while we seek to understand and address the daily issues faced by councils, it is right that we step back and ask ourselves some strategic questions. What is the best model to serve local needs, especially for the most vulnerable groups? How do different authorities best work with their communities to meet the needs and priorities of local areas, which will no doubt differ across the country? The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, alluded to this in his remarks. What is the right balance between state intervention and support and the power of local democracy for local decision-making and authorities?

These are big questions and we must raise them. Indeed, it is not only me asking questions about the role of local government; the sector itself, including the Local Government Association, is constantly challenging itself to do better for all the people it serves. As my noble friend Lady Redfern said, there have been tough times. There continue to be challenging issues to address, but authorities are being innovative.

Social care services are essential to protect our most vulnerable. This is a priority for this Government. The Prime Minister has been entirely clear on this matter and I am keen today to dedicate some time to how we are supporting district councils and the universal services which neighbourhoods rely on. I will also be reflecting later on the important issues of empowerment and community—which I feel strongly about and which was a major theme in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves.

I turn first to the spending round. This Government understand their responsibility to make sure that local authorities are adequately funded. I was pleased—as I am sure were all noble Lords—with the positive outcome of the spending round. Core spending power, the measurement we use for local government funding, is expected to grow by £2.9 billion for England, which is an estimated 4.3% real-terms rise. I know that the Secretary of State was delighted to have secured the largest year-on-year increase in spending power since 2010—a package which will allow councils to,

“provide more support for areas such as adult and children’s social care and make sure that we are supporting the most vulnerable people in our local communities”.

Beyond social care, we are protecting vital front-line services by increasing the biggest elements of core settlement funding in line with inflation, and we are consulting on a 2% core council tax principle for all councils next year. I take account of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, on that issue. This significant result is a testament to what happens when we work together with the sector. I am grateful to councils up and down the country which fed into our preparations. The LGA has said that we provided local authorities with,

“much of the funding certainty and stability they need for next year”.

I shall address the point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Kennedy, on the new homes bonus. The Government have previously noted that 2019-20 was the final year of new homes bonus funding as agreed in the spending review 2015, and that any funding beyond 2019-20 would need to be agreed as part of the next spending review. I understand that the new homes bonus represents an important part of district council budgets and can form a large percentage of core spending power. We have listened to requests from local authorities to honour previously announced legacy payments totalling £624 million. As part of the roll-forward settlement, the Government are minded to make a new round of allocations for 2020-21, and I would welcome views on our proposals.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, raised a point on the Public Works Loan Board. I am not particularly familiar with it, but I hope I can reassure him that the Treasury recently increased the margin that applies to new loans from the PWLB by 100 basis points on top of the usual lending terms. The Government also successfully legislated to increase the lending limit of the PWLB from £85 billion to £95 billion to reflect their commitment to ensuring that local authorities can continue to access the financing that they need to support their capital plans. Since this change took effect, my department has been engaging with the sector to understand the potential impact that it could have on its capital plans and strategies, especially with regard to housing and regeneration.

[Lord Adonis]

The Minister has not addressed my point about the substantial increase in the interest rate. I am not expecting him to be able to do so across the House, but will he write to me about it? Would he be prepared to meet me and other noble Lords to discuss this issue, which I understand is central to the ability of local authorities to borrow to build new housing?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I was coming on to address some of the other points on the subject of housing. I will come to the noble Lord’s point in a moment. He raised a number of questions and I want to be sure that he receives full answers.

The Government remain committed to business rates retention, which is yielding strong results, including for district councils. We are aiming to increase the level of retention from 50% to 75% from 2021 to give councils greater flexibility over their funding and to reward authorities for generating economic growth.

I now move on to the important issue of relative needs and resources. The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, warned against an easy formula of salami-slicing as opposed to better targeting. That is a very good point. The Government understand that demographic pressures have affected local areas in different ways, as has the cost of providing particular services. Councils told us that they wanted a simpler, up-to-date funding formula based on the best available evidence, and that is exactly what we are working to deliver. We are working closely with local government representatives to consider the drivers of local authorities’ costs, the resources available to them to fund services and how to account for them in a way that draws a more transparent and understandable link between local circumstances and local authority funding. This is a thorough, evidence-based review of the costs faced by all authorities. We have confirmed that we now aim to implement the review in 2021-22 so that the sector has the certainty that it needs to plan for 2020-21. It is important that we get direct feedback from local authorities, and we are grateful for the trusted links that we have across the sector. The more that we can consult, the more likely it is that we can get it right.

In looking ahead to the upcoming local government finance settlement, we have set out our proposals in a technical consultation which will close on 31 October. It sets out the package for local government in more detail and responds to the calls from the sector for certainty and stability. We will listen closely to the views and contributions from representatives of local government and aim to publish a response in the provisional local government finance settlement in early December.

I shall now address a number of questions that were raised. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, mentioned the critical services on which all communities rely. He mentioned street cleaning, recycling, community services, libraries, housing and many others. I, too, recognise the critical role that all local authorities play in delivering these services. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, is right that parish councils play an important part in local services. I reassure her that we want them to grow and expand and that we are doing our best in our communities brief to do that. Councils have managed reductions in funding and people’s satisfaction with waste collection and libraries has largely held up. Satisfaction levels are high—but that does not mean that we are complacent.

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, spoke about provision of park and community services. We continue to support parks and community spaces. In fact, I am looking at this area particularly strongly at the moment to see what more can be done. In 2018-19, we invested £15 million in an innovative parks programme, and we will launch a new £1.35 million programme to support the next round of pocket parks very soon. Working with our partner, Pub is the Hub, we have funded almost 200 pub diversification projects, introducing new services that are of value to the community. The noble Lord spoke about waste management and climate change. He was right to raise these important global issues. Like the whole of government, my department supports the objectives of the Environment Bill. Local authorities, as local leaders, experts, place shapers and convenors of local communities, are empowered to play a fundamental role in delivering the environmental action needed in their areas.

My noble friend Lady Redfern, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, referred to libraries. I thank them for that. I have spoken on libraries in the past. I recognise the work of staff and volunteers. I know that the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is working closely with the noble Lord, Lord Bird, to look at the future of libraries in the 21st century. I understand that it is called the libraries task force. Many innovative approaches are being taken across the country, for example in Warrington, to bring services together in communities. My noble friend Lady Redfern and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spoke about libraries having to innovate, and they are right.

Councils across the country are transforming not just how they work but their role in leading local places, strengthening local infrastructure and reinventing localities. Many areas are achieving fantastic results, such as district councils in former coalfield areas collaborating on First Art.

The noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Kennedy, spoke about social housing. I shall make a few remarks about housing; there is a lot more I could say, but I am not sure I shall have time. I am delighted to accept the invitation to visit. I think there were probably two visits, one with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and one with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. We have announced a comprehensive package of reform, which will support our ambition to raise housing supply by 300,000 per year by the mid-2020s. We are driving the delivery of affordable housing through measures such as the £9 billion affordable homes programme, abolishing HRA borrowing caps and setting a long-term rent deal for social landlords from 2020. This Government have seen housing supply increase by 1.3 million since 2010. We have also backed schemes such as Help to Buy and Right to Buy, which have supported more than 566,000 households to purchase a home.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, raised a number of questions. I shall look at Hansard to make sure that his questions receive detailed answers.

I shall pick up on what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said about homelessness. It is an issue that we take incredibly seriously in the department under my honourable friend Luke Hall. I thank the noble Earl for his contribution, and I was saddened by the stories he shared with us. He is right that funding is needed alongside community support. That is why, alongside the additional £2.9 billion for local government, this Government are committing over £1.2 billion to tackle homelessness and rough sleeping, and a flexible homelessness support grant of £670 million. The Chancellor also announced an increase in the level of funding for public health grant so that local authorities can continue to invest in prevention, which, as I am sure the noble Earl agrees, is most important.

I now turn to the communities section of my remarks —an area I regard as very important. The Government are committed to continuing to build strong communities where people feel proud of their neighbourhoods and are actively involved in local decision-making. As my noble friend Lady Redfern said, local government, including the district councils that provide important neighbourhood services, is a vital partner in supporting communities across the country. We also want communities themselves to take an active role in changing their area for the better, because there is much power and potential in our communities. Across the country we see examples of local people coming together and leading change, from community clean-ups and community groups running valued front-line services, to volunteers in libraries, mentioned by my noble friend Lady Redfern. The Government want to continue to unlock that potential and help create an environment where all our communities feel empowered.

That mission is at the heart of the Government’s approach to communities, and, in case there was any doubt, I can say that I am involving myself with great enthusiasm in this area. As the noble Lords, Lord Goddard and Lord Kennedy, said, it is a question of collaboration and integral working to achieve more. As we have discovered, when organisations work together, they are better placed to apply for specific new funding.

This summer my department published a new communities framework, setting out a vision of how we can strengthen our communities with four areas of focus. The first is building trust and local pride. High levels of trust and social capital are a crucial building block for a thriving integrated community and for our nation’s well-being and economic prosperity. We want people to feel a sense of pride and connectedness in where they live and to build strong local relationships. That is why my department is supporting work to overcome barriers to integration and help bring people together. That work includes the Near Neighbours scheme, which has supported over 1,600 local community projects, bringing together people from different backgrounds to tackle local issues; programmes to help people improve their English skills, which I believe was mentioned this afternoon, so that they can become part of community life—some people who have been in this country for decades have not addressed that, so we have high hopes—and the Integration Area programme, which is working with five local councils to overcome integration challenges and share their learning, with an additional £10 million announced for the second wave of areas in 2020.

Secondly, I want to focus on active citizenship and giving communities control over local decision-making. This Government are focused on pushing power down and enabling decisions that affect local people to be made at the local level. We will continue to support the community rights and powers established under the Localism Act, such as neighbourhood planning, which enables communities to develop a shared vision for their area for the future.

The third area is shared community spaces. In our busy world, it is becoming increasingly challenging to connect with one another, but shared spaces such as our parks, which were referred to this afternoon, community centres, pubs and libraries provide the vital community infrastructure that brings people together. We have provided additional funding for our parks, which I mentioned earlier, with a new £1.35 million programme, working with our partner Pub is the Hub, which I also mentioned earlier.

The fourth area is shared economic prosperity, with no community left behind. We know that some communities have not shared in the wider economic growth experienced in the UK. The Government are committed to building strong communities that help create a thriving and inclusive economy, and to ensuring that prosperity is shared.

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, spoke about towns and high streets. He will know about this but we have committed to a £3.6 billion towns fund, and local people will have a say in how that money is spent. He spoke about competition but it is right that there is a competitive approach. Towns are being invited to approach us and to put in, in effect, business plans setting out how they can reinvigorate their high streets. We want to work closely with them to make sure that funding is directed to the right place. I hope he will forgive me when I say that, in this area, I think competition is a good thing.

Through our support for those four areas of work—trust and local pride, active citizenship, community spaces and shared prosperity—the Government will continue to work to empower communities.

I recently visited Walsall, which is one of our integration areas, and met several community groups and organisations doing amazing work to support local people. I met groups running English classes to enable people to increase their confidence, make the most of the opportunities available, and play a full and active role in the local community. I also heard about the Places of Welcome scheme, which tackles loneliness and social isolation by providing places where people can go simply to see a friendly face or have a cup of tea and connect with others. This is an example of what can be achieved when local government works in partnership with local actors to build stronger and more integrated communities. It is one thing that I will definitely continue to press ahead with.

In conclusion, I assure noble Lords that this Government are committed to providing local government with the funding it needs and to ensuring that the funding is both flexible and proportionate to an area’s demographic needs. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, spoke about homelessness and I want to write to him on that specific point.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has raised important issues and I am grateful to him for doing so. I appreciate having again a short debate with him on higher education matters, here on a very specific issue. I recall from previous debates that the noble Lord has visited Northern Ireland, so it acts as a bit of a link when he raises these matters today.

Higher education, and indeed education services as a whole in Northern Ireland, have been raised in various debates in the House over the past two years. It is clear that education is an important area that needs strategic decisions on future reform. That is vital to ensuring that all children and young people in Northern Ireland have the opportunity to fulfil their full potential. On the issue of establishing a university in Derry, I am aware that the city and the wider north-west has a pool of talent to be nurtured, and I know of the excellent University of Ulster Magee campus in Derry city centre. I am also aware, as I believe are a number of noble Lords, of plans potentially to establish a medical school in Derry, as mentioned today. I am keeping a close eye on the progress of this proposal in the context of delivering the Government’s commitment to a Derry and Strabane city deal. However, while I know that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, knows this, measures to improve higher education, such as to invest in a new medical school or university anywhere in Northern Ireland, are devolved matters. It is this Government’s fervent hope that Northern Ireland’s political leaders can see their way to agreeing to restore the devolved institutions so that locally accountable leaders can take the strategic policy decisions needed to make progress. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has spoken eloquently on these points. Perhaps I may reassure the Committee that the Secretary of State is making every effort to ensure that the ongoing talks process is a success.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made a point about there being not enough university places in Northern Ireland, a point of which I think the Committee has taken full note. I am grateful for the views put forward about the situation on the ground by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. That has been helpful to the Committee. Higher education provision is crucial to ensuring that we have the skills for the future and opportunities for our young people. They should have the choice to study at universities across to UK.

As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, pointed out, there are two universities in Northern Ireland: Queen’s and Ulster. Ulster University has several campuses, including the Magee campus where a range of courses are offered, including in professions such as law and accountancy. As mentioned, Queen’s University runs a medical school, and discussions on a medical school at Magee are ongoing.

Decisions on places are a matter for the government department in Northern Ireland. As this is a devolved matter, I will not purport to be able to significantly enlighten the Committee on the substance of the important issue that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has raised. But in light of its importance—here I am for once on the same side of the fence as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—I am happy to accept the amendment and to commit to reporting on progress on the issue.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, that is an extremely constructive response on the part of the Minister, and I welcome it. It is a significant step forward and gives us the opportunity, on the basis of a good, factual account of the situation, to debate the future in autumn in the event that there is not an Assembly and Executive. If there is, that report will no doubt be useful for them too. However, may I just clarify a point of some significance? In the event that there is not an Executive or Assembly in the autumn, under this Bill and the continuation of these powers do the Government have the power to proceed with the establishment of the medical campus in Derry on their own account?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My understanding is that they do not, but I will write to the noble Lord to clarify that matter.

[Lord Adonis]

I would be extremely grateful if the Minister could do that. In the light of the assurance he has given, I do not feel the need to prolong the debate any further. I beg to move.

Universities: Financial Sustainability

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

There are a lot of uncertainties around, and the noble Lord makes an extremely good point. One of the most important points coming through, perhaps as a result of the reforms that we are making, is the opportunity for current and new providers to market themselves effectively. There are a lot of issues connected to this, including the teaching excellence framework. As we know, we are beginning to look more at how subjects can be assessed, so that students from abroad can see with much greater transparency and clarity what courses are available and what their ratings are like, and hopefully choose Britain rather than other countries to come to and study.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, two very specific questions were asked by my noble friend on the Front Bench which the noble Viscount did not reply to. When precisely will the Augar report be published, and can the noble Viscount give an undertaking to the House that its recommendations will not diminish funding for our universities?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I answered the question by saying that I cannot give a precise date for when the Augar review will report, but I have said consistently that it will do so very shortly, and here we are early in 2019. I am not going to be drawn into speculating on what the Augar review will say; we will have to wait. When the report is published, the Government will want to make a full response.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 30th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, for clarity, we should allow the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, to finish his speech. There have been a number of interventions and I am sure other Peers will have a chance to intervene afterwards.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, my response to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is that of course the devolved institutions are not even sitting in Northern Ireland at the moment, so we face two issues in this respect. The first is that the Northern Ireland Assembly should be given an opportunity to address this matter. Clearly, it does not have that opportunity at the moment because it is not sitting. The Bill seeks to ensure that the Northern Ireland Assembly does sit and is sustaining an Executive by the end of next March. The second point concerns the situation if the Assembly is not, even when it is sitting, able to address this issue, I do not believe it is consistent with the poll that the noble Lord has just cited that the people of Northern Ireland would regard it as satisfactory for the Assembly in Northern Ireland not to address this issue of fundamental rights. One way or another, in a short time, this issue must be resolved. It will not be satisfactory either for the Assembly in Northern Ireland to fail to address this issue or for this Parliament to allow fundamental breaches of civil rights to take place in a substantial part of the United Kingdom. I beg to move.

Higher Education and Research Act 2017 (Cooperation and Information Sharing) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

They have gone through the scrutiny procedure, as mentioned.

Let me continue. These regulations and the enabling primary legislation provide greater protection, scrutiny and control over information sharing than before. The regulations replicate, and in some cases improve on, the arrangements that HEFCE, OFFA and the DfE had in place for sharing information with other bodies. As HEFCE’s and OFFA’s enabling legislation did not place controls around co-operation and information sharing in the same way as the Higher Education and Research Act 2017 does for the OfS, the legal framework around information sharing has actually been strengthened. The parliamentary process for the regulations, including this very debate, also means that there is more scrutiny and oversight of the information sharing than before.

I should now like to address the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, in turn, starting with his question about the consultation with UCAS and universities, and, in particular, students’ concerns regarding access to their data. As the noble Lord may know, officials and Ministers have regular meetings and interactions with universities, and they work closely with UCAS. On student concerns regarding access to their data, I reiterate that personal data would be shared only if there were serious concerns and if it were necessary to share that data.

[Lord Adonis]

The noble Viscount always uses these weasel words. He says, “if it was necessary to share that data”. What does that mean? In what circumstances would it be necessary to share that data?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I think that it would be wise if I continued with my remarks and then, if there are further concerns, I shall be happy to listen.

First, the noble Lord, Lord Watson, referred to the “single commercial provider” within the regulations, which is Pearson Education Ltd. To reassure him and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, I emphasise that Pearson is included in these regulations solely in its capacity as the awarding body for HND and HNC qualifications. This is in the same way as other awarding bodies have been included in the regulations—namely, the Scottish Qualifications Authority, Gateway Qualifications Company Ltd and the Vocational Training Charitable Trust.

The OfS would share with Pearson only information that related to the provision of HNDs and HNCs. For example, as happens now between the DfE and Pearson, the OfS might wish to alert Pearson to an issue around the quality of this provision or suspicions of wrongdoing relating to HND or HNC provision. This sharing would be done in the interests of students and the taxpayer. Any data sharing would be underpinned by a data-sharing agreement stating that Pearson could not use that data for any other purposes. This is just one of a range of strong safeguards and protections that will be in place, as I will set out shortly.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, raised a question about Sir Michael Barber and his potential conflict of interest. There are already information-sharing agreements between the DfE and Pearson. Sir Michael Barber no longer works for Pearson and, in any case, he was not involved in the drafting of the regulations. Therefore, I reassure the noble Lord that there really is no conflict of interest. In addition, if it emerged in the future that the OfS wished to share information or co-operate with any other organisation not currently included in these regulations, and this was to fulfil a function of that other body, I make it clear that this would be possible only by amending the regulations.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, and my noble friend Lord Lucas asked why Pearson is included and whether awarding the HNC and HND makes it unique. They also asked about transparency surrounding what they can do with the data. I reiterate that Pearson is included only because it owns, designs and awards HNDs and HNCs. The collaboration agreement with Pearson will be published—there is transparency. Data-sharing agreements will not be published, as they may contain commercially confidential information about the circumstances that have led to the concerns that are being shared with the other party.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, asked whether Pearson can sell on data. The answer is: absolutely not. The information sharing will be underpinned by data-sharing agreements which will specify the purposes of the data sharing, and these purposes will not include selling data. If Pearson did so, it would be in breach of the data-sharing agreement and subject to sanctions by the Information Commissioner—a serious matter.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, asked about parliamentary scrutiny, and I would like to add to the words that I used. The regulations were scrutinised by the JCSI before they came into force, and there was a debate in the Commons in Committee on this very matter. The inclusion of any new body in the regulations would therefore be subject to the same parliamentary scrutiny and oversight as these regulations have received.

Secondly, the noble Lord, Lord Watson, was concerned about the sharing of students’ confidential data. Data privacy is a particularly pertinent topic in the current climate, and this is precisely why the Government have strengthened the legal framework underpinning data sharing by the OfS compared to the previous regime. I emphasise, however, that the main purpose of these regulations is to enable information sharing at a provider or course level. Personal data would be shared only if there were serious concerns—for example, around fraud or malpractice—and there was a specific need to share personal data to investigate a specific issue.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, also raised concerns that students’ confidential information will be shared without the consent of those to whom it refers. I reassure noble Lords that any data sharing will be subject to data protection legislation. While consent is one lawful basis on which information may be shared, there are other bases for data sharing; the circumstances will dictate which is most appropriate. The OfS will always seek consent where it is appropriate to do so. However, where data sharing is to investigate wrongdoing or fraud, for example, and seeking consent would jeopardise the investigation, the OfS may rely on another lawful basis for information sharing.

In addition, I reassure noble Lords that these regulations do not oblige the OfS to share any information or to co-operate with any of the bodies in the regulations, including Pearson. They simply make this possible where appropriate. It will be for the OfS, or in some cases the Secretary of State, to decide when to do this, and this will be decided in the context of the general duties and functions of the OfS as set out in primary legislation.

I would like to go further. I reassure all noble Lords that there will be strong safeguards for any data sharing that is carried out with all bodies included in the regulations, including Pearson. For example, any information sharing will be subject to strict data protection laws governing its use, as stipulated by the primary legislation. These regulations do nothing to undermine data protection law. The OfS will also publish its collaboration agreements with other bodies online, including stating where data sharing agreements are in place.

It might happen, for example, that the OfS needs to share information with another body as part of a joint investigation. In this case, the OfS would also create a bespoke data sharing agreement. This agreement would state what data will be shared, with whom and why, on what legal basis, and how it will be processed and kept secure. This would also set out individuals’ rights in relation to their data. The OfS would only ever share data with precisely who needed to see it and only ever precisely what they needed to see to resolve the issue. A data sharing agreement is binding: if any organisation breaches this, the OfS as the data controller would stop this arrangement and, where appropriate, inform the Information Commissioner, who could then take action. Make no mistake: this would apply to every organisation in the regulations, and Pearson would be no exception to this.

I now turn to the final point from the noble Lord, Lord Watson, in which he called on Her Majesty’s Government to carry out a privacy impact assessment on the regulations. I thank the noble Lord for raising this point, because data privacy impact assessments are indeed a useful tool. Under GDPR, however, the Government are not obliged to conduct such an assessment. Furthermore, it would not be appropriate to do so. While the Government, in writing these enabling regulations, have identified the overall situations and reasons where the OfS may wish to share information, the need for a data privacy impact assessment should properly be considered by the organisation that will be sharing the data, once the specifics are known. Much of the data sharing would be in response to emerging concerns: for example, where there are suspicions of wrongdoing. It is only at this point that the nature and extent of privacy risks can be properly assessed and fully effective solutions put in place. The OfS is aware of the sensitivities around the sharing of personal data and takes its responsibilities to safeguard personal data extremely seriously. It will consider whether a data privacy impact assessment is needed, and will carry this out where appropriate, before sharing information that could impact on personal privacy.

I hope that, having put a lot of emphasis on these safeguards, I have reassured the House that data sharing—in particular with non-government bodies, including Pearson—will be undertaken in an appropriate way and for the right purpose, with strong protections in place.

Higher Education (Fee Limits and Fee Limit Condition) (England) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords on the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for their scrutiny of the fees regulations laid before this House in July and considered in the 36th report from the committee.

My purpose here today is to speak to the fees regulations that require approval. They support our aim that anyone with the talent and potential to benefit from higher education will be able to do so.

UCAS data show that we have made good progress on this. In 2017, 18 year-olds were more likely to enter full-time higher education than ever before, with disadvantaged 18 year-olds 50% more likely to enter full-time higher education than in 2009. The most recent UCAS data on application rates for English 18 year-olds show an increase by 0.2 percentage points on last year’s deadline to 38.1%. This is a record high.

However, as I have said before, we know that there is more to do. That is why the Government are currently undertaking a major review of post-18 education and funding to ensure we have a joined-up education system that is accessible to all and encourages the development of the skills that we need as a country. We expect to conclude the review in early 2019.

Turning to fees, the Government announced on 2 July in a Written Statement that maximum fees for students undertaking undergraduate courses in the 2019-20 academic year would remain at 2018-19 levels for the second year running, saving students up to £255.

This is not the only change we have made to help students. From the tax year 2018-19 starting in April 2018, we increased the repayments threshold above which graduates are required to make repayments on their loans from £21,000 to £25,000, rising by average earnings thereafter. We have also taken the opportunity to review policy for EU students. The Written Statement of 2 July I mentioned earlier also announced that existing eligibility rules for students from the European Union, and their family members, who start their courses in England in the 2019-20 academic year will remain unchanged. This means that EU nationals will remain eligible for home fee status, undergraduate, postgraduate and advanced learner financial support from Student Finance England for the duration of their course under the current eligibility rules.

Why are these regulations important? I turn now to the details of the fees regulations being considered today. They are made under Section 10 and Schedule 2 of the Higher Education and Research Act 2017. They will ensure that the Office for Students, the new regulator for higher education since 1 January 2018, has the powers to set maximum fee limits for home students studying at providers in England that are subject to a fee limit condition in 2019-20. These regulations will also ensure that the Government can implement the new regulatory framework under HERA in full; in particular, the requirement for providers to submit access and participation plans to the OfS in order to charge fees above £6,165 for a full-time course.

The existing fee caps, made under Section 24 of the Higher Education Act 2004 will be revoked automatically on 1 August 2019, as a result of Schedule 11(30)(2) of HERA. It is therefore essential that new regulations are made under HERA to ensure that fee caps continue and that students benefit from the freeze in maximum fees. Under HERA, providers can choose to register with the OfS in one of two categories: either the Approved (Fee Cap) or Approved categories. Providers registering in the Approved (Fee Cap) category will, for 2019-20, be eligible for OfS grant funding and will also be subject to maximum fees set through the regulations being discussed today: £9,250 for a full-time course offered by a provider with a teaching excellence and student outcomes award. Students attending Approved (Fee Cap) providers will be able to access loans to cover the full costs of their fees. Providers registering in the Approved category will not be eligible for OfS grant funding or subject to maximum fees. Students attending those providers will be able to access lower rates of loans towards the costs of their fees.

Under HERA, the OfS will be able to limit fees charged by Approved (Fee Cap) providers once these regulations come into force. So without these regulations, providers would be free legally to charge whatever fees they wished. In addition to setting maximum fees for the 2019-20 academic year, these regulations also amend another set of regulations that will allow the OfS to operate under HERA. The Fee Limit Condition Regulations, which came into force on 1 April 2018, deliver the framework for the capping of student fees for qualifying students and courses at providers registering in the Approved (Fee Cap) part of the OfS register. These regulations amend the Fee Limit Condition Regulations so that persons who have a current grant of stateless leave, and their family members, who are undertaking qualifying courses in the 2019-20 academic year are defined as qualifying persons. This means that they will benefit from the same maximum fees that currently apply to other qualifying persons, such as persons who are settled in the United Kingdom.

These regulations also amend the Fee Limit Condition Regulations so that students already holding an equivalent or higher level qualification who are undertaking pre-registration, nursing, midwifery and other healthcare courses will be defined as qualifying persons and will benefit from maximum fee limits. With those explanations, I beg to move that these regulations be approved.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the regulations so lucidly. He referred to the review that is taking place on student finance, which is of huge importance, of course, to students and their families and to universities. He said that the report would come in early 2019 but he said nothing more about it. I have three specific questions about the review. First, will it be publishing either an interim report or any interim statements or summaries of evidence taken? I think that could be quite useful in stimulating the public debate that needs to take place around the future of the higher education funding system.

The second point is about consultation. Which groups of students and young people are the Government consulting, because a big and controversial issue has been the failure to include young people in the review team? The one group that is not a part of the review team directly is the group of very young people and students who are directly affected by this. That is a big mistake. The right thing to do, particularly if we are to win support from the generation that is paying these fees in a reformed system, is to have some buy-in from them at the beginning. The failure to put those arrangements in place will cost the Government dear. It would be good to know what consultation is taking place with young people.

Thirdly, what polling among the public and young people is the review doing to ascertain the attitudes of the public at large to the sharing of the burdens of paying for higher education and the attitudes among young people? My view all along, having played a part in the introduction of the original scheme in 2004 but having been opposed to the trebling of tuition fees in 2010, has been that students recognise that in order to be responsible and constructive members of society, particularly in the current climate, where they are very focused on getting jobs and making their way in the world, they need to make some contribution to the higher education system, but they resent the fact that all the costs of the higher education system have been moved to the students and the graduates. Polling might bring that out and might help to establish a basis of agreement on public attitudes, which might make a burden-sharing approach possible which, to be blunt, might mean cutting the level of fees from £9,500 but not eliminating them entirely.

My party’s official position is now to eliminate fees entirely. The noble Viscount’s position is to have them at £9,500. There is quite a big space between zero and £9,500. Being, as ever, moderate and constructive, I am quite keen that we come in somewhere in the middle of that space. That might be sustainable among the public, rather than doing what I fear may happen, which is lurching from a very high level of fees by international standards to no fees at all.

Finally, when I read the debate in the House of Commons Delegated Legislation Committee on these regulations, the Minister for Higher Education said that he was conducting a listening tour around the country. I am strongly in favour of listening tours; I wish the Government would conduct them on many other issues, too, including Brexit, but that is for a later debate. However, he gives an extraordinary figure for the number of students he has met, which I am hugely impressed by. He said that on his listening tour so far he has met more than 1,500 students. I am not sure whether those 1,500 have been in the hall with him as he has been going around or whether he has personally conducted conversations with them.

I would be very grateful if the noble Viscount could tell us whether he has any findings from the Minister’s listening tour or whether the Minister might publish findings from his tour when he has finished it, because knowing that he has conducted a listening tour but not knowing what he has heard is not of great use to Parliament when we come to consider these significant student finance and funding issues after the review reports in the early part of next year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My understanding is that it covers England only. I understand that discussions are going on with the devolved Administrations, but the review focuses on England only.

[Lord Adonis]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Viscount, but the situation of Northern Ireland is therefore very serious because there is no other means of conducting a review or introducing changes in the current climate. When the review was set up, it looked as if the Northern Ireland Executive might be re-established. That has not happened. Is he in a position to inform the House further about the Government’s attitude in respect of Northern Ireland?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I think I will add that to the letter that I will write to the noble Lord specifically about Northern Ireland. I remember what he said in the previous debate.

The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Watson, asked about progress in appointing an independent reviewer of the TEF. The recruitment of the independent reviewer is under way and an announcement will be made in due course. I have taken note of the comments the noble Baroness made about the TEF and the feelings that were expressed in this House about it last year. If they have not gone away, it is an issue that will be addressed.

I reassure the House that this is a devolved matter—this is going back to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. The review covers England alone, but it comes back to the point that I was making that I will write to him about matters relating to Northern Ireland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked whether we can continue to take part in Erasmus. An announcement on the Erasmus programme will be made in due course, particularly to take account of the planning needs of students and universities.

The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, also asked about ELQ exemptions and part-time study. The ELQ rules have been relaxed to support students who already hold an honours degree qualification and who wish to retrain on a part-time basis in a STEM subject. The review of post-18 education and funding will look at how we can encourage learning that is more flexible. This takes account of comments that I made in a recent debate on this important subject, particularly relating to the Open University.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked about the decrease in part-time study, particularly in the 30 to 49 age group. In this academic year, part-time students will, for the first time ever, be able to access full-time equivalent maintenance loans, as I think the House will be aware.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, raised some interesting points about the perspective from universities, and I took note of what he said regarding Lancaster University. It is a fair point, because if fees are capped, less money goes to universities. We are obviously aware of that and will take account of it as part of the 18-plus review. It is part of the overall view of how the future of tuition fees will pan out. That includes the points he made about the means-tested maintenance grant.

My final point is aimed to address something said by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. He was talking about a range of where tuition fees might be from £0 to £9,250. I took it that the £0 meant that it was still Labour Party policy that, if it were ever to come into government, it would offer free education to students.

[Lord Adonis]

I do not speak for the Labour Party—that is for my noble friend on the Front Bench—but that was the policy at the last election.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My point in raising that was to say that this 18-plus review is also looking at these matters. Nothing is ruled in and nothing is ruled out and the independent panel will be looking at it. With that, I commend the regulations.

Higher Education (Transparency Condition and Financial Support) (England) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, my purpose here today is to speak to draft regulations that encompass two keys elements of the Higher Education and Research Act, or HERA, as I shall refer to it, which require approval. I turn first to Section 9, the transparency condition.

There has been considerable progress in widening the access and success of students from disadvantaged and underrepresented groups into higher education. University application rates for 18 year-olds to full-time study remain at record levels, according to data published by UCAS earlier this month, and the proportion of disadvantaged 18 year-olds entering full-time higher education has increased from 13.6% in 2009 to 20.4% in 2017. However, there is more that could and should be done to fulfil our aim that anyone with the talent and potential to benefit from higher education will be able to do so, particularly on the progress of students from disadvantaged backgrounds to the most selective institutions, and the outcomes, including the retention and attainment of some groups of students. We want to see progress made and have charged the new regulator, the Office for Students, to lead that.

The introduction of the transparency duty through Section 9 of the Higher Education and Research Act is a key measure that will support the OfS in making the further progress we wish to see. This duty requires certain higher education providers to publish information on application, offer, acceptance, completion and attainment rates of students, which can be broken down by ethnicity, gender and socioeconomic background. The duty will apply to all providers registered with the OfS, including both those in the approved and approved fee cap parts of the register. It will ensure that data, similar to that released by the universities of Oxford and Cambridge on admissions recently in anticipation of this duty, is available from August 2019. That greater transparency will shine a spotlight on where higher education providers need to do more to widen the access and success of students from disadvantaged and underrepresented groups.

The duty also requires that the information is provided to the OfS. That will help the OfS to assess the performance of providers in terms of access, student success and progression. To ensure that we see progress, the OfS will be able to take action if a provider does not comply with its obligations, including on the access and participation of students from disadvantaged and underrepresented groups. The OfS has access to a range of interventions and sanctions which incentivise improvements. This can include placing additional registration conditions on providers, suspending providers from the OfS register, and, if necessary, imposing monetary penalties on a provider.

I recall that the duty was broadly welcomed by noble Lords during the passage of HERA. At that time the Government gave a commitment that the OfS would be asked to undertake a consultation in respect of additional data it might request on applicants and students with additional protected characteristics, such as disability and age. I am pleased to be able to report to the House that we have asked the OfS to undertake that consultation, and it has announced that it will do so through publishing a formal consultation and holding consultation events later this year.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

I understand that there is great concern in the student world about the sharing of this data with third parties. Can the Minister tell us which third parties this information will be shared with?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

If the noble Lord will allow me to finish the speech, we can have the debate then, and I will certainly bear in mind the point that he made.

The consultation, which is part of a wider consultation on the OfS work on access and participation, is intended to be published at the end of August, and consultation events will be held during September, with findings available early in 2019. The implementation of the duty through these regulations will help ensure that we can make further progress on the access and success of disadvantaged students, as well as supporting informed choice for all.

On the second part of these regulations, Section 39 of HERA, these powers allow the OfS to provide financial support for higher education. These funding powers broadly replicate the funding powers conferred by Section 65 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 on HEFCE, but have been expanded so that the OfS can fund any eligible higher education provider. Eligible providers in this new system are those subject to a cap on the fees they can charge, and thus are in the approved fee cap part of the OfS register. Such financial support is important because it gives the OfS the ability to provide financial support to providers to support a range of different delivery models, such as part-time, and to promote student choice, competition and value for money. It also permits the OfS indirectly to fund qualified schools, colleges or other institutions that are connected to an eligible higher education provider.

Furthermore, these powers ensure that the OfS can continue to provide funding for subjects which cost more to teach than can be met solely from tuition fees, such as those science and medicine courses that are so crucial to the economic and social future of the country. These powers also make it possible for the OfS to provide funding to incentivise and support providers’ work on widening participation or to meet the unavoidable costs of small and specialist provision, such as performing arts courses.

I turn to an issue involving the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has drawn the special attention of both Houses to this statutory instrument in its 30th report. It has stated that there is doubt that there are adequate vires for the regulations. I appreciate that some of what follows may seem rather technical. However, it is important that I put the Government’s interpretation of the relevant provisions on the record, given the strength of the committee’s views.

Before turning to the detail—which is important—I want to be absolutely clear that I greatly appreciate the invaluable work the Joint Committee does in holding the Government to account for the secondary legislation that they produce. I am especially grateful for the clear way the committee has expressed its views in its recent report and, indeed, for the extensive engagement between its officials and my own during the drafting of these regulations.

The committee’s conclusion, as I understand it, is on the basis that the regulations involve subdelegation to the Office for Students and that this is not adequately authorised by the parent Act. Having carefully considered the concerns raised by the committee, and having again consulted those who drafted the provisions, the department respectfully disagrees. The Government’s view has always been that the Act was deliberately designed to enable regulations to refer specifically to named categories of registered provider, as created by the OfS.

In technical terms, that was achieved by the inclusion of a specific provision—Section 119(5)(d), which states that regulations made under HERA may,

“include provision framed by reference to matters determined or published by the OfS (whether before or after the regulations are made)”.

The division of the register into different categories is then expressed by the Act to be precisely such a matter that the OfS “determines”. That is clear if one reads the words of Section 3(2), which uses the word “determines” when it gives the OfS the power to divide the register into categories.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I hope that the Minister will forgive me, but I am somewhat confused by the procedure. My noble friend has tabled a Motion to Regret on one of the sets of regulations even though the Minister introduced all of the regulations in his opening remarks. Perhaps I may make a few remarks now on the first of these sets of regulations concerned with transparency before we come on to the data sharing issues in a moment.

No one could have anything against these regulations. It is vital that there is transparency and the Office for Students, which got off to a terrible start in terms of its reputation, the appointments to the board and so on, is at long last starting to concentrate on some of the issues for which it was set up. One of those is to ensure fair access and to encourage universities to publish appropriate data on this. It is an important point, and the Minister’s remarks on that at the outset were well made and I support them entirely.

The essential thing to understand is that the publication of data itself will not improve access. It is a tool to that end, but the critical development is what happens university by university and community by community. My concern with the OfS is that, in setting up this new body and getting into a big exercise in establishing systems, protocols and data arrangements, it will concentrate too much in its first year or two on getting the systems in place and not on actually changing the behaviour of universities. There is some evidence for that already.

The first big announcement the OfS has made is to parade, as if it was some enormous achievement in the history of higher education, a register of providers. A register of providers in itself is an entirely neutral thing. No additional provider has been made available simply by the publication of a register. The fact that this may be the first such register is an interesting proposition but it is not a great development in the history of higher education in this country.

As a former Minister in this area, everywhere I go around the country I can see the enormous challenges involved in widening access. I want to bring the Minister’s attention to one area which I hope he might be able to write to me about after the debate. I do not expect him to be able to respond to my remarks now, but it is an issue of immense concern which does not come to the attention of this House because of devolution. I spent most of last week in Northern Ireland, where the shortage of higher education places is a very big issue. Northern Ireland exports a very large number of students to universities in the UK because there has been proportionately a much lower cap on places in Northern Ireland than has applied in Britain.

I turn to a subject that was raised with me almost everywhere I went, particularly at Queen’s University Belfast. Students and academic leaders told me in graphic detail about the brain drain from which Northern Ireland is suffering as a result of the shortage of higher education places. That in itself is a matter of concern. A large number of students in Northern Ireland are studying in Britain and then not returning home, which is very damaging to the economy and probably also to the wider society of Northern Ireland. However, there is an additional dimension that was forcefully made clear to me: this is a particular issue in the nationalist Catholic community in Northern Ireland because of a decision taken by the Stormont Parliament a generation ago not to establish a university in Londonderry. I looked into the history of the decisions that were taken in the 1960s and 1970s. It was decided to set up a new higher education institution in Coleraine rather than Londonderry which, amazingly, still does not have a proper higher education institution. That is greatly resented by the community in Londonderry and acts specifically against the interests of the Catholic community.

Normally this would be a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly to concern itself with, and indeed part of the reason the Assembly exists is to address issues like this. However, it has now been more than a year since the Northern Ireland Assembly met. The two leading parties in Northern Ireland have conspired to keep the Assembly from sitting. There is no Government in Northern Ireland. Therefore, in this as in other areas such as equal marriage and abortion, this Parliament must surely start addressing these issues if there is no other democratic outlet for Northern Ireland to make its views heard, and for them to be addressed as they should be by Parliament.

This issue of higher education places in Northern Ireland, which goes directly to the issue of access, looks to be of fundamental importance. Will the Minister undertake to do two specific things? First, will he let me know what the powers of the Office for Students are in Northern Ireland? Does it have powers in Northern Ireland equal to the rest of the United Kingdom? Can it get into these issues of access? Secondly, will he ask the Office for Students to look, if it can, at fair access not regarding the number of places, but between different parts of the community in Northern Ireland, because it is clearly an issue that is very strongly felt there?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their broad acceptance and approval of these regulations. I thank my noble friends Lord Lucas and Lord Lexden, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. I will cover all their questions in turn.

On the big picture, these transparency regulations are very important as part of the setting up of the OfS and its very remit. The whole point is that there should be transparency and universities should be seen to provide value for money for all students. At the end of the day, outcomes are also important: students going in, what they do when they come out and where they go. Linked into the LEO figures we can then better know who is coming in, who is coming out and how they get on. Ultimately, that helps to market our universities at home and abroad, particularly, as I said at the beginning of my speech, looking at social mobility and disadvantaged students who—for first time in some cases—have the chance to go to university and a great opportunity for a career.

The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, made an interesting point about elite universities and sharing data. That leads into something that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, will feel strongly about, which is transparency at vice-chancellor and senior leadership level at university. He and I agree on this. He knows, as I do, that we are putting as much pressure as we can on all universities, including the elite ones, to act with restraint. They obviously have a duty to publish certain figures relating to their salaries. I will not go into the details of that; I think that the House knows about it. That will help to lead to that restraint, but it will also help to raise the profiles of the universities abroad. People will be able to look at the figures and at what the universities do, how they operate and how they manage themselves. I hope that it will be a good story and that more people will come to university. There is a linkage there.

My noble friend Lord Lexden asked about the current position of the OfS register. I reassure him that it now exists. The OfS recently confirmed that the first 42 providers have been officially registered. The OfS register is now available for anyone on the OfS website. The OfS will continue to populate the register over the forthcoming months.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked early on in the debate about the sharing of data. Maybe I can give him a little bit more information. The information-sharing regulations enable the OfS to share information with a range of bodies as set out in the regulations, where this is for the purpose of performing the other body’s functions. The OfS will also be able to share information with third parties where it is appropriate to do so and where this is part of an OfS function. There are specific regulations laid down with restrictions for that.

My noble friend Lord Lucas, in welcoming the regulations, asked about the research and evaluation by universities and their sharing of expertise in tackling underlying problems. We have asked the Office for Students to develop an evidence and impact exchange to identify and share good practice on what works and what has the greatest impact.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, spoke about Oxbridge and ethnicity. Wadham was mentioned. “If Wadham can, then why can’t the others?”, one noble Lord asked. I think I said at the beginning that 18 year-olds from disadvantaged backgrounds are entering full-time higher education at record rates, including the most selective universities, which is positive news, but we have asked the OfS to challenge for and encourage more progress, particularly at our most selective institutions. The publication of transparency data by ethnicity will shine a light on where they need to go further, so I hope that provides some reassurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about the powers of the OfS in Northern Ireland. I listened carefully to his latter remarks and am grateful for his observations. The OfS is a regulator of higher education in England only but, having said that, let me write to the noble Lord, because his remarks were quite expansive and extended to the difficulties that Northern Ireland is facing at the moment. I will read his remarks in Hansard and write a letter to him to clarify that.

The noble Lord also asked about the OfS concentrating too much on setting up and systems, and not on changing behaviours. I do not agree with him. Yes, a key focus this year is for the OfS to register providers, but it has a wide range of other priorities as set out in the Government’s strategic guidance to the OfS published in February, and set out in the OfS’s strategy and business plan. On the back of the Higher Education and Research Act, the OfS is very much up and running. The noble Lord mentioned certain problems that arose, but I am glad that he acknowledged that it is moving forward and making progress on a range of matters.

I hope that I have covered the questions asked. Noble Lords have a keen and understandable interest in the implementation of HERA. There is no doubt that today’s scrutiny plays a vital role in ensuring that the reform promised by that Act is achieved.

Review of Post-18 Education and Funding

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord again raises the issue of the DSA. I know that he has done a huge amount of work over many years for the disabled and disadvantaged sectors. I reiterate that the Government are very much committed to ensuring that all students with disabilities receive the very best possible support to enable them to study alongside their fellow students on an equal basis. Disabled students have access to a package of support to cover additional costs that they may face to participate in higher education. I reassure the noble Lord that this is in scope, but I do not want to prejudge the outcome of the review. I am certain the panel will want to look at it. Beyond that, I cannot really comment because the panel is independent.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a review of the burdens being placed on students and young graduates, so can the Minister tell us what is the age of the youngest person on the review? Looking down the list of the six members, it does not look to me as if any of them are under the age of 50. Does he think it a good idea that there are no students on the review? Will he explain why there is no current student experiencing higher education and paying these fees on the review? Could he undertake that the Secretary of State will meet members of the Youth Parliament with me to discuss their views on student fees and loans and how the system should be reformed, given that they have no membership of this review?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

On the noble Lord’s first question, I will not be drawn on the ages of the members of the panel. I think that was the gist of his question. Even if I knew the ages, I would not wish to be drawn on that.

[Lord Adonis]

Will the Minister write and tell me the ages? It is a material factor given that this is a review of student finance.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am certainly not going to commit to that. I do not feel terribly comfortable giving out the ages of the panel. It may well be in the press, but I am not prepared to do that. We have a very strong panel.

On his second question, which was to do with the representation of students, he is absolutely right, but the point is that this panel will deliberately be kept small to make it more manageable. They will be engaging with a complete range of stakeholders, including students and student representatives, business and many other areas. I hope I can reassure the noble Lord that this is a wide-ranging stakeholder engagement process with a small and neat panel.

[Lord Adonis]

Will the Secretary of State meet members of the Youth Parliament with me to discuss their views on these matters?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

On that third question, I am very happy to pass that on, but I do not want to give any guarantees that he will agree to do so.

Student Loans Company

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I do not agree. For some time, the Student Loans Company has had a strategy that includes an initiative to improve the SLC performance across the board and with a focus on user experience for borrowers and staff engagement. The DfE and the SLC are working very hard on this.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, do the Government have a response to yesterday’s report by the Higher Education Funding Council for England into the governance of Bath University, which found very serious failings? Does the Minister agree that the position of the vice-chancellor—paid this year £468,000—is now untenable after the findings of HEFCE?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord has raised the issue of Bath on a few occasions and I understand his concern. However, this is not something for the Government to iterate too much on—the House will remember the point made about institutional autonomy during the passage of the then Higher Education and Research Bill. However, we say very strongly that universities must look carefully at what they pay not just their vice-chancellors but their senior leaders. That is something that the Office for Students will be looking at earnestly when it is set up.

Student Loans: Interest Rates

Debate between Lord Adonis and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That is because it is not necessary to do so. The proportion of borrowers liable to repay when the £21,000 threshold took effect in April was significantly lower than could have been envisaged when the policy was introduced. The threshold would now be set at £19,000 if it were to reflect the same ratio of average earnings.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister think there are any circumstances—

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

We believe that RPI is more appropriate than CPI for student loans. It takes account, among other things, of changes in mortgage interest payments and council tax, which, I may say, are typical expenses for graduates that are not included in the calculation of CPI.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I am not sure about reforming universities but I certainly think we should reform the way in which we conduct Question Time in this House.

[Lord Adonis]

Does the Minister think it justifiable for any vice-chancellor to be paid more than £300,000 a year?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I made the position clear on vice-chancellors’ pay the other day in the House. Although the Government do not wish to interfere, my colleague in the other place, Jo Johnson, has made it quite clear that universities must have restraint in the pay offered to vice-chancellors and, indeed, to other senior positions.