Ukraine

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Geraint Davies

Wednesday 25th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Geraint Davies]

I am grateful for that intervention. We are not just talking about economic costs and sanctions; the main cost of this war is the loss of human life, and the 5 million refugees who have left Ukraine. There is a lot of talk in this place about the need to stop people getting into boats and crossing the channel, but we are simply are not doing enough for those 5 million Ukrainians.

When I visited Lithuania, I went to centres at which hundreds and hundreds of people were arriving each day. People—usually women with young children—were processed within hours. Biometric and basic checks would be done, and then the individuals would be associated with a family, a kindergarten, work and so on. I talked to the head of the civil service about immigration and refugees, and she said that they regarded those people not as refugees, but as friends or part of their family, and as a support to their labour market. In Britain, the view tends to be, “Hold on, what about the cost to the health service, education and so on?” That is despite the fact that we have labour shortages, as 1.4 million Europeans who were registered to work here have stayed in Europe. Obviously, we should open our hearts and homes to the people of Ukraine, who share our values. We share their suffering, and we should support them in every way we can. Not enough is being done, and we need to do much more, much more quickly and effectively.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern about the discrepancy between refugees taking part in the Homes for Ukraine scheme, for whom funding is available, and those involved with the family visa scheme, for whom it is not? There is an assumption that people who arrive on family visas will be funded through their families, but not all families are the same. Some people are brought over by grandparents, and they now have to carry the costs themselves. I think the Government have already been asked to change that inconsistency, and it would be wonderful to reiterate the question of why refugees are treated differently depending on the route by which they arrive.

[Geraint Davies]

The right hon. Lady makes an excellent point, which I fully concur with. Frankly, the reason for this discrepancy has been the mean-minded culture in Britain—the idea that we somehow have a refugee problem. Across Europe, we are 17th for the number of asylum seekers we take per head of population, and fifth overall. It is not as if we have a huge burden. In Poland and elsewhere—I have mentioned Lithuania—there is a massive burden of people coming over. A lot of them are in a state of psychological flight, and they think, “Actually, we want to go to Britain.” Getting to Britain is being made out to have been made easy, but it has not. People are taking months, not days, to get here, and that should be resolved straight away.

Transport Funding: Wales and HS2

Debate between Liz Saville Roberts and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered transport funding for Wales and HS2.

Bore da. Good morning. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairpersonship, Sir Edward. I am here to talk about HS2 and particularly funding for the railways in Wales. We are all aware that tomorrow the Chancellor has his Budget, that next week is COP26 and that the Government have been talking about connecting the Union, levelling up and net zero. When we think about all those together, there is a compelling case that the Chancellor should look to give Wales our fair Barnett consequential, akin to the Scottish one, so that we can tool up, gear up, connect up and help move the UK towards net zero with more rail investment.

The Welsh Affairs Committee, on which some of us here serve, recently recommended that Wales should receive the same Barnett consequential share as Scotland. Simply put, Scotland gets 91.7%, as a proportion of population, of its share of the total costs of HS2. If Wales got 91.7% of our 5% share of HS2, and if for argument’s sake HS2 cost £100 billion, Wales would get something in the region of £4.6 billion. If HS2 ended up costing twice that, we would get something in the region of £9.2 billion. I am sure that we will hear about this from the Minister soon, but we have heard that the projected costs have moved from £38 billion to £100 billion, and now there is talk of costs of £160 billion to £200 billion.

HS2 is obviously a UK scheme. However, it is a north-south spinal scheme, so it will clearly benefit Scotland more than Wales. One could argue that Wales should receive a higher proportionate share than Scotland, but that is not what I am arguing; I am simply arguing that we get our fair share.

I know that the Minister is a great expert in HS2. Phase 1 was originally due to be completed in 2027. That has been kicked forward to 2033, and the latest news from the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) is that we are looking at something like 2041. Given the timescale for action that is projected by COP26, we really must get a move on. There is a very strong case that Wales should have its share of the money to get on with shovel-ready schemes in both north and south Wales, to help build productivity and connectivity, to help with levelling up and to help deliver net zero.

We know that the Leeds section of HS2 has been cancelled. We also know that, because of the amount of concrete that will be used, HS2 will take 100 years to become carbon neutral, and that two thirds of the woodlands cut down will be burned by Drax power station, which will affect carbon emissions and air quality.

However, let us assume that HS2 is going ahead full throttle—namely that phase 1 might be over by 2041. We in Wales then have a case to get moving now and to get schemes delivered on the ground. I should disclose that, as people may know, a long time ago I was the leader of Croydon Council. I delivered the Croydon Tramlink scheme, a light rail electrified orbital tram system, which is 26 km long and connects Beckenham, Croydon and Wimbledon. That cost £200 million gross, but £100 million net, because it was a public-private partnership. That scheme, which connected three constituencies, cost the Exchequer only £100 million. With HS2, we are talking about £100 billion—a thousand times that scheme. My point is that there is a lot to be said for small, cluster-based schemes around the country, particularly on an east-west basis. I am talking about the northern powerhouse as well as connectivity to Wales and, very importantly, within Wales.

The situation in terms of relative competitiveness is that I can go from London to Manchester in two hours and 10 minutes, and from London to Swansea in about three hours. With HS2—if it does happen—we will be able to get to Manchester in one hour, so we have to ask what investors are going to do. We have already seen Virgin pull out of Swansea and go to Manchester because of this, and KPMG did a study some years ago showing that we will lose tens of thousands of jobs from south Wales unless we get some investment of our own to connect up, in particular, the clusters of Swansea and westwards with Cardiff and Bristol, to make that engine turn faster.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

To return to the point the hon. Gentleman made about speeds and time, what is the rationale for the Severn tunnel being the dividing line? To the east of the Severn tunnel, a person can travel at 125 miles an hour, but we are supposed to accept that, for some reason, to the west of the Severn tunnel, the speed is 100 miles an hour at best. Why should we accept that as a rationale, when other times for travelling are being so spectacularly improved?

[Geraint Davies]

I completely agree with the right hon. Lady. Obviously, there are engineering and geographic issues here: Brunel originally had a straight line going through to Swansea, which would have taken half an hour—clearly, it used to loop around to pick up coal and that sort of thing. But one of the things about time, of course, is that if you increase frequency, you reduce average time. I appreciate that the Minister may have a different view on HS2, but I think there is too much focus on gaining a few extra minutes when what we really need from HS2 is greater capacity: bigger trains and thicker tracks, or whatever, not necessarily going faster. If I can go to Edinburgh in three hours, which is the same time it takes me to get to Swansea, do I really want to spend £100 billion or £200 billion to gain that extra bit of time?

In the meantime, although I know Members will talk about the benefits for Wales, it is sad that the current plan does not contain the direct link between Crewe and Manchester that would help Wales. As we know from our own line, after we zoom through to Bristol and then to Cardiff, there are a number of smaller stations, and the train has to stop and start and that sort of thing. If HS2 had lots and lots of different stations, it would have to stop all the time, so that has been ruled out, but that means that people have to travel a long way to get to HS2 and connect with it. If we do not have this Crewe connection—which we will not—the benefits for Wales will be very small, much less than for Scotland. My minimum ask is that we agree the Welsh Affairs Committee’s joint party report that said we should get the same share as Scotland, as opposed to more, because Scotland will benefit and we will lose out.