Ivory Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Lisa Cameron and Simon Hoare

Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 19th June 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I hear what the hon. Member for Workington has to say and can understand entirely the motivation behind it. However, if she pushes her amendment to a Division, I will not vote for it. Let me explain why. I want the Committee to think about the little old lady or gentleman who works in a charity shop selling items on a daily basis. They might come into work to find boxes of stuff when someone has done a house clearance after an aunt or uncle has died. They might sell something to somebody and then it transpires that an offence has been committed because the item is made of ivory.

I do not think that in those circumstances they should be found guilty of something because they knew or suspected, or should have known. Antiques dealers with an online presence, buying and selling all sorts of products, are precisely the sort of people who ought to know or suspect. I do not think the intention of the Bill is to have lots of officials running around trying to trace every single person who is doing something without prior knowledge, and certainly not maliciously or trying to get around the law. There has to be an element of common sense and balance.

I entirely appreciate that, in some instances, that evidence gathering can present a challenge to the enforcement authorities, but it is always a challenge for enforcement authorities to gather compelling evidence to bring a prosecution or levy a fine that is beyond challenge. I understand entirely why the Government have drafted clause 12(2) in this way, because they have to strike a balance and have a bit of common sense. It is right that there is that common-sense caveat in the enforcement clauses, and I urge the hon. Member for Workington to withdraw her amendment.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)]

I think that this measure has to be strengthened, and we heard clear evidence along those lines from the experts. Like my colleague, the hon. Member for Redcar, I want to know what “ought to know” will be taken to mean in such a situation. Will it be based upon a person’s experience or history of dealing with such artefacts? I have concerns about how a person can prove that they did not know something. Proving a negative is difficult judicially. This measure should be strengthened, but I have concerns and would like to hear more from the Minister in that regard.

Dog Meat Trade

Debate between Lisa Cameron and Simon Hoare

Thursday 5th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Cameron]

I agree with my hon. Friend that pressure must come to bear from as many angles as possible.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

I have huge sympathy with what the hon. Lady is saying. Does she agree that, contrary to what was said earlier, we are more likely to be successful if instead of trying to tell people what they can or cannot eat, we promote these campaigns on the arguments of human health and animal welfare as those are the best ways to get communities and societies to change? As desirable as the aim might be, I am tempted to think that if we go down the cultural imperialist route there will be a fierce backlash.

[Dr Cameron]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution and agree that we have to be extremely sensitive about cultural concerns. We must make sure that animal welfare issues are focused on and raised in a productive way.

On crime, it appears that in some Asian countries the dogs used for the industry are mostly stolen pets. I note that a survey conducted by AnimalsAsia found that 70% of Chinese villagers in rural areas had lost at least one dog to thieves. A Channel 4 documentary from 2014 highlighted similar issues with dog thieves in Vietnam, while also raising the problems with associated violence.

The SNP and the Scottish Government take the welfare of all animals very seriously and routinely feed into deliberations on animal welfare at both the EU and OIE—the World Organisation for Animal Health—level via the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. When dealing with another country’s practices, there must always be an element of caution in making judgments. There must also be sensitivity and a holistic approach to bringing about change; pressure from western Governments or certain activist approaches can be perceived as counterproductive.

The dog meat trade is an extremely important animal welfare issue and the SNP is supportive of charities working with international counterparts to improve dog welfare globally. I also think the UK public as a whole are very much animal lovers and take animal welfare extremely seriously. I urge the Minister to take forward these issues.