Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill

Debate between Lindsay Hoyle and Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom

Friday 16th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Arbuthnot]

I beg to move amendment 5, page 1, line 5, at beginning insert “Subject to section 138BB”.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 1, page 1, line 5, after “may”, insert

“if it has been resolved by a two thirds majority of the members of the council, in a meeting called specifically for that purpose”.

Amendment 12, page 1, line 5, leave out “may” and insert “shall”.

Amendment 3, page 1, line 8, at end add—

“( ) in no case may more than three minutes be devoted to business under this section.”

Amendment 6, page 1, line 17, at beginning insert “Subject to section 138BB”.

Amendment 2, page 1, line 17, after “may”, insert

“if it has been resolved by a two thirds majority of the members of the council, in a meeting called specifically for that purpose”.

Amendment 7, page 2, line 7, at end insert—

“138BB Local referendum on religious observances

(1) If a local authority wishes to use powers under sections 138A or 138B, it must obtain the consent of the electorate through a local referendum.

(2) The referendum is to be held on a date decided by the local authority and may be held on the ordinary day of local elections.

(3) The persons entitled to vote in the referendum are those who, on the day of the referendum would be entitled to vote as electors at an election for councillors of the local authority.

(4) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision as to the conduct of referendums under this section.

(5) If a local authority wishes to use powers under section 138A, the question to be asked is of the form “The council of the (County/City/Borough/District) of proposes to hold religious observances as part of the formal business of council meetings. Do you agree that the council should be allowed to do this?”.

(6) If a local authority wishes to use powers under section 138B, the question to be asked is of the form “The council of the (County/City/Borough/District) of proposes to support and/or be formally represented at religious events. Do you agree that the council should be allowed to do this?”.

(7) If the majority of persons voting in the referendum under either subsection (5) or (6) approve of the proposal, the local authority may use the powers under the respective sections 138A or 138B for four years from the calendar date of the referendum.

(8) In no event may a further referendum be held within four years of the day on which a referendum under this section has been held.”

[Mr Arbuthnot]

There are several amendments in my name. The first is on the need to have a local referendum before the issue, which in some cases is controversial, is decided. All I ask is that we should give the local electorate power to make this decision. What could be a greater example of localism than that?

Amendment 1 suggests that there should be a two thirds majority of councillors called in a council meeting specially designed for the purpose. That is in order to ensure that the councillors themselves decide the matter by a strong majority, rather than it being delegated, for example, to the mayor or even to officers of the council to make a decision. Again, that is a good example of localism. Amendment 3 proposes that any such religious observance should be limited to three minutes because, in view of what I have already said at some great length, I do not think we want to have these religious observances extended too long.

I hope that those simple amendments might find favour with my hon. Friend the Minister, but if not I shall withdraw them.

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Debate between Lindsay Hoyle and Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom

Thursday 26th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Arbuthnot]

Yes, I do. Embarrassingly, I was fully consulted by the French Government on the introduction of their “livre blanc”, and I felt honoured, but I have no impression that the chairmen of the Assemblée Nationale or Senate committees were similarly involved in the discussion of our strategic defence and security review. That is one example of how, although Anglo-French co-operation is very good, it could still work a bit better.

There was no sense in the strategic defence and security review of a discussion of what sort of country we wanted to be, and the threats that we were facing, followed by a decision about how we were going to face those threats. Instead, there was a feeling of, “This is what we can afford, so these are the threats against which we will defend ourselves,” whatever those threats turn out to be.

For example, we now have six Type 45 destroyers. Why is six the right number? The original number was going to be 12, then it was cut to eight and then to six. When I was a Defence Minister we used to say that the right number of major ships was about 50. Why is it that now about 19 can defend our interests around the globe? However powerful a Type 45 destroyer is, it can only be in one place at any given time. There is also a concern about a loss of contingent capability. We always get wrong our predictions about the wars that the country will face, so we must be able to address unpredictable concerns that may arise.

However, there are many things to praise in the SDSR. The cyber-strategy, very welcomingly, refocuses the Ministry of Defence, other parts of the Government and industry on future issues. It is partly to welcome that that the Defence Committee is doing a series of inquiries into the cyber-threats that we face.

Lord Levene’s determined look at reforming the Ministry of Defence is radical. A number of my right hon. and hon. Friends, and other right hon. and hon. Members, feel that in some respects his work may be too radical or going in the wrong direction, but the Defence Committee will look at that issue, too. Bernard Gray’s focus on changing defence procurement already looks extremely promising; the Defence Committee has always been extremely impressed when he has appeared in front of us.

I shall end as I began. In the interests of mending fences, I wish to repeat, with praise, what the Secretary of State said to the Committee in December:

“If there is one clear lesson, it is that we have to move away from managing this business for cash to managing it for value, and that is the transition process that we are now into.”

As I said at the time, if my right hon. Friend can achieve that, he will turn out to have been a great Secretary of State.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I remind hon. Members that there is an eight-minute limit on speeches.