Pensioners and Winter Fuel Payments

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about the standard rate, and of course when the Chancellor made his announcement about the winter fuel allowance earlier this year he did not dwell on it in any great detail. In fact, he passed over the issue almost completely, and we found out about it only in the small print. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but it beggars belief that whereas it was thought okay to have the increase in each of the last three years, the Chancellor and the Government have chosen this year to cut the extra payments for our senior citizens, despite the anxiety that was expressed throughout the House just a few weeks ago about extremely high and rising energy prices across the country.

When I raised the matter with the Prime Minister on 2 November, he said:

“we have kept the plans that were set out by the previous Government and I think that is the right thing to do.”—[Official Report, 2 November 2011; Vol. 534, c. 918.]

I have listened to the Prime Minister and Ministers speak many times about their spending plans and what the previous Government did, but I do not think I have often heard them say that. On virtually every occasion they have said that the previous Government’s plans were leading to economic disaster, yet on this issue, and only on this issue, they pray in aid the fact that the previous Government were, they say, going to cut the allowance, and that it is therefore the right thing to do. Frankly, that is not good enough. I leave it to the Opposition to outline what their position was.

The Government have decided to maintain health spending at a certain level, saying that it needs to be ring-fenced. They have said that international aid spending needs to be protected, and that we needed to spend money to intervene in Libya. I have no difficulty with any of those things—I support them—but now the Government say that it is right to cut payments to our senior citizens, at a time when they are suffering from extreme cold and high and rising energy prices, because that was what the previous Government had planned. That is a shabby argument, and not one that bears any kind of scrutiny. The Government should stand on their own two feet, argue their case for themselves and justify it to the House and the country.

I want to pay tribute to groups such as Age NI for their work in Northern Ireland, and to Age Sector Platform, which has been very busy in recent months running a significant campaign called Fight the Winter Fuel Cut. Recently, a group from Northern Ireland led by Margaret Galloway, Michael Monaghan and Nixon Armstrong travelled to Westminster and presented the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), with a petition. Hundreds of people are signing that petition every day.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the subject of Northern Ireland, will he reflect on the fact that, for the first time, a commissioner for older people—and a very good one in Claire Keatinge, who was formerly the director of the Alzheimer’s Society—has been appointed? Does he see a role for the commissioner on the issue of winter fuel payments? How could she influence the Government to do the right thing? We hear a lot of criticism of human rights in the House, but there is a guarantee that no one in the UK should experience degrading treatment. For older people, the Government’s policy seems like degrading treatment. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree?

[Mr Dodds]

I certainly do agree with the hon. Lady, who rightly points to the important step taken by the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive of appointing a commissioner for older people, which follows the appointment in Wales of someone who fulfils the same kind of role. I have no doubt that the commissioner, who I agree is an excellent appointment, will be active in putting to Northern Ireland Executive Ministers the case for our older people. As I outlined earlier, a number of things are currently being undertaken by the Executive, and they are considering others, to help our older people. However, what the hon. Lady says on winter fuel payments, which affects the entire country, and which is for decision and debate in this House, should carry some considerable weight.

On whether the allowance is poorly targeted and whether it is the appropriate way in which to deal with fuel poverty—the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) mentioned this—the argument against the universal payment principle overlooks the fact that many of those entitled to, for instance, pension credit, do not receive it, for a variety of reasons. In Northern Ireland, somewhere in the region of £60 million is not claimed by those who are entitled to pension credit. Those people are hit with a double whammy: they do not get pension credit or cold weather payments, because the latter go only to those who claim the former. The only way to ensure that the most vulnerable people get financial help is to keep the universal payment. I believe that there is no dispute between the Government and those who agree with me, because the Conservative party pledged in its manifesto that the allowance would be kept.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Webb]

The Chancellor was asked this very question at Treasury questions recently, and he confirmed, as is entirely in line with my view, that the triple lock is something of which we are proud. I am sure that we will be just as proud next Tuesday when he announces his verdict.

This is not just about the basic state pension: it is also about pension credit. As has rightly been pointed out, we need to make sure that pension credit take-up is maximised and we already do many things in that regard. Some people may not know that they can ring an 0800 number—a freephone number—to claim pension credit. They might think there is a long and complicated form to fill out, but in fact they can claim it over the phone and can also claim housing benefit and council tax benefit at the same time. We also undertake a lot of activity to engage with people who might be eligible. For example, we mention pension credit to people when they claim the state pension or when they report a change in their circumstances such as a bereavement. We also have a visiting service so that if people are not online or perhaps are not able to get out, DWP and local authority staff go out to their home and fill in forms with them in their front room.

As a Department, we are doing quite a lot to encourage take-up, but I am aware that the Democratic Unionist party manifesto mentioned trying to pay pension credit automatically. We have been piloting that in Great Britain and I can update the House on that exercise. We took a random sample of about 2,000 customers who were not receiving pension credit but whom we thought, based on what we knew about them, appeared to be entitled to it. For 12 weeks, we paid them the money anyway without their having to make a claim and then we contacted them and said, “By the way, we’ve just given you some free money. This is what we think you would get on pension credit—would you like to make a claim for it?”

The delivery phase of that study ran from November 2010 to March 2011 and an evaluation is now under way, but I can update the House on the early findings from that research. We found that by August, after the process had finished, a percentage of those involved in the study had successfully claimed pension credit. I am going to ask Members to think to themselves what percentage I am about to say, assuming that no one has read what we published. So, of the 2,000 people to whom we gave pension credit because we thought they were entitled to it, what percentage do hon. Members think then successfully claimed it? I shall not do a straw poll at this point. The answer is just 9%, which is a very low figure. Given that 3% of those in the control sample claimed, if we had done nothing we would have had 3% claiming anyway, whereas we had 9%.

We found that those who did go on to claim pension credit did so because the study had raised their awareness of the benefit and their potential eligibility for it, as one might expect. We talked to some of those who did not claim and found that some of them retained the view that they were not entitled to it even though we had contacted them and given them the money. Some felt that they did not need it, which is fair enough, some did not claim because of health issues, others forgot and some did not quite understand what was going on. It was a complex process, and we will publish a rigorous evaluation of it. It would be great if we could spot all the folk who are not taking pension credit and get the money to them automatically, but the early indications are that that will not be the case and that this approach is not a silver bullet that will enable us to deliver the money automatically. However, we will see what lessons we can learn from the pilot and I shall be happy to update the House on that a bit nearer the time.

[Lady Hermon]

May I establish when the Minister last visited Northern Ireland? The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) gave the statistic in his opening remarks that 75,000 homes in Northern Ireland are in extreme—that is the word he used—fuel poverty. With the greatest respect to the Minister—and I do have the greatest respect for him—I would like him to visit Northern Ireland and come to some of those homes. It is absolutely degrading for an elderly person to have to eliminate their television because they cannot afford a television licence, or to have to choose between food and fuel. This is a really serious problem in Northern Ireland.

[Steve Webb]

I do not doubt for a second the point that the hon. Lady, for whom I have a great deal of respect, makes. Obviously, as a GB Minister, I am responsible for these matters in Great Britain. Fuel poverty is a devolved matter, although my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, who will respond to the debate, was in Northern Ireland last week. Yesterday I spoke to the Northern Ireland Minister for Social Development to discuss with him these issues as they affect Northern Ireland. He was keen to stress some of the measures that the Executive are taking—for example, the double glazing of social housing.

That comes back to the point I was making, which was that this is partly about 98p a week on the winter fuel payment, which is what we are discussing, but far more about stopping people having highly energy-inefficient homes and giving them a decent, dignified standard of living. If hon. Members think about the difference that we are going to make through the triple lock on the basic pension, it swamps the 98p that we are talking about today and will make a real impact on the living standard of pensioners over decades to come.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). The speeches of Members on the Opposition Benches have been characterised by a great passion on behalf of their constituents about the issue of fuel poverty. Everybody in this House is concerned about that issue and we have all had to deal with constituents who are finding life a struggle. The opportunity to debate our concern for the vulnerable this afternoon is an example of Parliament at its best, because such issues are why we are all in this place and why we attempt to do our best. It is important that Government Members think about what we are doing for pensioners and how far we are supporting them in dealing with the ever-increasing burden of fuel prices.

I assure Members of the Opposition parties that if the measures that the Government are putting in place were less than adequate, I would be the first in line to criticise them. However, if we look just through the prism of the winter fuel payment, we do not see the whole story. We need to look at the wider support that we are giving to pensioners through pension reform and other benefits.

[Lady Hermon]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady so early in her speech. She has conveyed the impression that coalition Members are very concerned, as they ought to be, about this serious issue that affects all parts of the United Kingdom. Why, therefore, are there so few Members on the Government Benches this evening? It is really embarrassing.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

I could also point to the lack of Members on the Labour Benches, but this is not an occasion to engage in party politics. We need to turn our attention to debating the substance of the issue.

I am satisfied that what the Government are putting in place is appropriate to support our pensioners. As I said, we need to consider the wider support that we are giving pensioners to deal with fuel bills, the other benefits that we are giving pensioners and the pension reforms. We also need to consider the quality of the housing stock, which has been raised a number of times in this debate. We need to think about what can be done to reduce bills, because then we would not have to give so much support to cover energy prices. At the moment, a lot of energy is used to heat the air above people’s houses.