Transgender Conversion Therapy

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2022 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

May I ask the hon. Lady and any other Members in the Chamber thinking of making that connection between trans and autism to be more thoughtful about how they express it? A number of people watching and listening to the debate will find it particularly unhelpful. I think that we can probably be a bit more nuanced in our language.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

It is important that we understand what we are talking about with gender dysphoria. It can also be a symptom of trauma. It is very important that we have the therapeutic care pathways—[Interruption.] Members may shake their heads, but I am talking about this from experience, having looked deeply into this area of medicine when I was responsible for it. We need to ensure that we are not putting people on to irreversible care pathways that will do them harm. For example, at the Tavistock, where the care pathway is based on therapy, as many as 40% desist. That is why it is important that people are given the space to explore what they believe to be their gender, because it can often be about something else.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) for the way he introduced today’s debate. The way he pinned down the specifics of what we are meant to be discussing was really helpful. I also thank the 145,000-plus people who signed the petition, including all those from East Renfrewshire who signed and the many who have been in touch to let me know of their deep concern at the gap in the Government’s proposals. I also thank the many organisations that have kindly been in touch with briefings on this issue.

I think the tone of today’s debate has been interesting. I always wonder what these debates will actually be like. I have to say, it has been really interesting to hear the groundswell of feeling from MPs across this Chamber saying that we are not okay with the gap and we think that conversion therapy should be banned in all circumstances. That is really important, because we need to be clear that nobody’s identity should be up for debate. Nobody’s identity should be a political football; nobody’s rights should be diminished or compromised. It is always important that we bear these things in mind when we consider the language we use in this discussion, because what we say here has a significant impact on those outside the Chamber.

So what are we talking about here? Conversion practices—I take the point that the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) made about the use of the word “therapy”; I think that is right, and I believe the Scottish Parliament uses the term “conversion practices”—are practices or conducts that are targeted at an individual with the intention of changing or supressing that person’s sexual orientation and/or gender identity. My hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson) described very vividly the terrible reality of what that can mean. The UK Government themselves have stated:

“There is no justification for these coercive and abhorrent practices”.

That being the case, I wonder why we are here, particularly when, again, the UK Government’s own research found that trans people are twice as likely to be subjected to or offered conversion practices as non-trans lesbian, gay or bi people.

I think it was the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) who outlined the fact that banning conversion practices does not criminalise outcome-neutral explorative conversations or therapy. It is only practices that have a targeted focus on directing someone towards a more “acceptable”—as the convertor would have it—outcome that would be criminalised. That is because the bottom line here, which we need to be clear about, is that conversion practices are abusive and deeply harmful, for which there is no excuse, and nobody should be left at risk of these practices.

How did we get to this point? We had a commitment from the UK Government that they would ban conversion therapy, but in April they performed a series of quite extraordinary U-turns. First, they said that they planned to drop the ban on conversion therapy. Then, predictably and correctly, they U-turned on that after a significant outcry, including from a number of Members on the Conservative Benches. However, that U-turn was only partial. I find it inexplicable that we would suggest that it is okay to ban conversion therapy yet somehow miss out this very vulnerable group.

I thought that the speeches today by the hon. Members for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) and for Darlington (Peter Gibson) were particularly important in that regard, and we need to remember that a significant number of voices are having nothing to do with the UK Government’s position, because it is completely unjustifiable. Indeed, this is a disgraceful way for the UK Government to conduct themselves, with no thought, as far as I can see, for the people directly affected. That is really disappointing, because of the damage it will cause to people’s lives.

It has been reported that the UK Government think that this is the correct course of action because there could be unintended consequences. We really need to be clear here—I think that there will be very predictable consequences if this gap remains, and the consequences will be that people’s lives will continue to be harmed and people will continue to be put into the most difficult situations, which will cause their lives to be significantly damaged.

[John Nicolson]

Does my hon. Friend recognise that one of the consequences is the fact that the international conference Safe To Be Me, which the UK Government trumpeted so keenly, has been cancelled? I know that she and I are both deeply concerned about the UK’s reputation, and this cancellation highlights just how far the UK has slipped on this issue, such that people no longer want to come to our shores.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that important point. If we look at the UK’s standing, in terms of the league table of places with a positive environment for people to be safe in their identity as members of the LGBT community, we see that it is slipping, and slipping fast.

Members have made points today that we should reflect upon. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington talked about the fact that the UK Government’s own survey pointed out the harms that are being caused, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire has just done. The hon. Member for Edinburgh West said that there is ample evidence of the harms that are caused to trans people by conversion therapy. The hon. Member for Darlington basically pointed out—I am paraphrasing here— that it is simply not okay to treat trans people as if they are ill and need to be cured.

However, it is not just we here today who are saying these things. We have heard that Mind, Relate, the Association of Christian Counsellors, the Scottish Human Rights Commission and many other organisations have also spoken out. The British Medical Association has spoken out, and it does not mince its words. It says of conversion therapy:

“It must be banned in its entirety.”

The BMA says that it is extremely concerned that the ban on conversion therapy has not been extended to transgender and non-binary people. It points to the UK Government’s own analysis of the impacts on the mental health of trans people, who, it notes, are

“already most vulnerable to being subjected to so-called conversion therapy, with one in seven trans people reporting that they had been offered or had ‘conversion therapy’”.

It is not just the BMA saying this kind of thing. The Royal College of Nursing’s annual congress voted overwhelmingly to support a total ban on conversion therapy; the British Psychological Society has made its views clear, too; and the Church of Scotland passed a motion at its general assembly calling for a ban on conversion therapy. I have increasingly heard from constituents with a strong religious faith who are also deeply concerned about the potential harm caused by not implementing a full ban.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) said that he “hummed and hawed” when considering whether to speak in this debate. I have to say that I am very glad that he did. I already knew that he is a thoughtful and compassionate man, but he demonstrated that again today in what I thought was a very important contribution. That is because there is a groundswell among those with a strong religious faith. We have heard about the large numbers of religious leaders who have spoken out on this subject already. There is no justification for a gap in the ban, and religion is not a justification either.

That recognition, from all angles, of the immense harm, is borne out by the people who are directly affected. Their voices are perhaps a bit missing today, but they are who we should be listening to. I was interested to hear the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) speak, because I thought she pointed that out very well. The experience of trans people who have already been harmed by conversion therapy is what we must consider when we think of the fact that that is somehow being left out of the proposed provisions.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith), I am very glad that the SNP Government in Scotland are clear about their commitment to ensure that everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, is safe from conversion practices. It is notable that they have taken steps to include in their process voices of people who are directly affected. They have an expert advisory group on ending conversion practice, which will look at support for victims and survivors—something that we must not let slip as we move forward because, while I and many others in this room are pushing for a ban on conversion therapy that includes trans people, there are many people whose lives have already been irreparably damaged.

Scotland is only one of a number of countries taking that approach; we have heard about Northern Ireland, and I understand that Wales is looking at this too. In the last year, Canada, New Zealand and France have all gone down this road, and nothing terrible has happened—of course it wouldn’t. However, the way that the UK Government are approaching this issue is making life particularly difficult for trans people; this conversation in itself is making life harder for people who are already vulnerable.

[Hywel Williams]

In this case, Wales is actually “Wales and England”, but many of us would welcome the opportunity for Wales to legislate on this matter. That might be a point that the Minister will respond to when he gets up.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am sure that the Minister is taking note and has heard the voices in Wales, as I have, who are talking about this.

The reason that this matters is that leaving trans people out of a ban on conversion therapy waters down the impact of the ban for everyone else. It allows conversion therapy to come in by the back door—or the trap door, as the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) said—and, of course, many trans people are LGB. It just makes everyone’s identities that little bit less secure, and everyone loses as a result. Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with being trans; that is what this all must come back to. Nobody needs to be cured, or converted away from being themselves; legislation here must reflect that fact.

I make no apology for having criticised the UK Government for U-turning repeatedly on this issue, but there is an opportunity for them to U-turn again and do the correct thing—I would certainly welcome that—to ensure that this is an all-encompassing ban on conversion therapy. I know that the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) is a very thoughtful Minister on this matter. The only question I have for him is: what steps is he taking and what conversations is he having with his colleagues to ensure that this ban is a ban for all?