Kashmir

Khalid Mahmood Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Ward]

I was approached by someone who said that the separatists should be fully engaged in the elections.

[Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)]

The right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) mentioned the elections. The real issue was, how many international and European Union observers—indeed, observers of any kind—were allowed in during the elections to verify the figure that he just provided.

[Mr Ward]

I raised the issue of participation in elections. The answer was that the elections are not trusted and that there is no confidence in them being fair.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I welcome my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), who will respond on behalf of the Opposition. I also welcome Barrister Sultan Mahmood, who is in the Public Gallery. He has been working on the matter for about 30 years—as long as I have been—and he has always tried to convey a fair perspective on the situation, which is what we need in order to resolve it. We need more people like him to do that.

After the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) opened the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) spoke about Edmund Burke. I will try to plough a furrow through the middle of those contributions and see if I can achieve some sort of balance. I think that we are somewhat sidestepping the real problem by talking about self-determination. The real problem is that, for the past 70 years, while we have talked about whether we want self-determination, whether we want to be with India, whether we want to be with Pakistan or whether somebody wants to go off with China, the people of Kashmir—particularly Jammu Kashmir—have been suffering. They have suffered an immense amount of difficulty, torture and instability. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) has said, rather than trying to take sides in the debate, we need to look at the people who currently have no rights.

Members have raised significant issues, including the size of the Indian army in Jammu and Kashmir. We need to consider how many armed forces personnel are there, what their duties are and what they are about to do. Why is it that, when a male member of a family leaves his home in Jammu Kashmir, his wife, sisters and mother are left wondering whether he will come back, whether he will ever be found again or whether he will return having been tortured and perhaps maimed for life? Why is it that, when a female member of a family leaves home, the rest of the family is left wondering whether she will return with her dignity fully intact, if indeed she manages to return at all? People face those significant issues day in, day out. We must support those people, as they are the ones who most deserve our support.

As has been mentioned, mass graves are a significant issue. There is not enough time to talk about that. Amnesty International and a number of Indian non-governmental organisations have looked at that issue and say that 10,000 people have been buried in mass graves. A barrister, Parvez Imroz, has been working hard on the issue. He estimates that at least 8,000 non-combatants have disappeared.

People have said that India is a democracy, but democracies should be open to investigation. Why has there still been no investigation by the Indian Government to try to address the issue? As has been mentioned, the Indian armed forces have special powers in Jammu and Kashmir. Why have no military personnel been tried in that area? In 2012, the United Nations said that the Indians have draconian laws, which is not acceptable in a democratic state. India professes to be democratic, so it should act as a democratic state and not have such laws.

If we want to support people in Jammu and Kashmir, they must be allowed the right to a health service that looks after them. They need a proper education service in order to grow and move forward. They need a proper structure of devolved government. Scotland has been given the right to hold a referendum. Such a referendum can take place in Kashmir only if the people of Kashmir have those basic, natural rights. They also need a transparent and accountable political structure. A lot has been said about the forthcoming elections in Jammu and Kashmir. Will proper United Nations, European Union and Inter-Parliamentary Union observers go there to see the transparency and openness of those elections for themselves so that we can stand in this place and quote the figures openly and honestly? It is important for us to look at such things.

We must provide a stable economic structure for the people of Kashmir so that they are able to deal with those things. People keep talking about the armies of Pakistan and India, but the real issue is that there have been a number of serious skirmishes on the border, and if we allow those skirmishes to continue, what happened in 2003 will happen again. There will be brinkmanship followed by a state of war between two regional nuclear powers, which is not what we want.

In order to move forward on these serious issues, we need to address the human rights and civil liberties of the people who are stuck in the region through no fault of their own and who only want to have a proper, decent life. They want to be able to move forward, so we need to do that. It has already been tried. When General Pervez Musharraf was President of Pakistan, a number of confidence-building measures were put in place between India and Pakistan. We need to put some of those measures back in place, but above all we need to consider the people of Kashmir. We must speak to them and let their voices be heard. Ultimately, whatever their religion, they are Kashmiri, and we should support them and ensure that they have the civic right to live their own life in that country.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

As a reward for those Members who have not yet been called, rather unusually, I accept, I will raise the time limit to nine minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Blackman]

I will not give way, as we do not have injury time.

As has been mentioned, there is democracy in Jammu and Kashmir. There is actually a Muslim majority, and as the hon. Member for Brent North said, they voted overwhelmingly in the elections and came up with a decisive result. It may not be the one everyone wants, but it was decisive. When we debate such issues just as Jammu and Kashmir is about to go to the polls, the risk is that we inflame tensions between the communities. We should understand the position of the various groups. The Shi’a Muslims do not support the right of self-determination, and nor do the Gujjars and Bakarwals, Buddhists, Hindi Dogras, Kashmiri Pandits, Sikhs or Christians. The only issue is that part of the Muslim population support it; but they are a minority. Far from wanting secession, either to Pakistan or as a separate state, the vast majority of people in the state want it to remain part of India. I have a solution to the problem, which is that the Pakistani forces illegally occupying part of Kashmir should leave and unite Jammu and Kashmir as one state under the auspices of India, and then it should be decided what is to happen.

The Hindu Pandits were forced out in a process of ethnic cleansing. The reports that I hear give a figure of 700,000 of them still living in refugee camps having been forced out. It would be ridiculous to reward those who engaged in ethnic cleansing—

[Mr Khalid Mahmood]

rose—

[Bob Blackman]

I will not give way.

It would be ridiculous to reward those people by saying, “We will get rid of all the people who might vote the wrong way, and then have a plebiscite.” It is absurd to represent the question in that way.

There are humanitarian matters in the conflict that need to be concluded. The victims are the Pandits who were forced out of their homes and the women who were forced at the point of a gun to convert from Hinduism to Islam, and were left to suffer. The populations in Jammu and Kashmir trust the secular state of India, which of course has a growing Muslim population, and Sikh and Christian populations, to administer their country rather more than they trust a predominantly Muslim Pakistani Administration. Minority groups in Pakistan—Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and others—are deliberately persecuted and they suffer at the hands of the Government.

It is now some 25 years since the worst atrocities in the Kashmir valley, when Hindus were driven out by the Islamic fundamentalists. We should be on the side of the people who suffered and make sure that the people who are in exile have the right to return to the homes that they occupied for centuries. Without doubt, that is the position we should take. I look forward to hearing the Minister say that this country stands full square behind the Indian Government and army, to ensure that there is peace and stability in the region.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) bemoaned the preponderance of white, middle-aged males. Thus, I rise with some trepidation and I can only offer an apology—there are some things that I am capable of changing and there are some things that are beyond that.

When I was being lobbied this morning by my appropriately named constituent, Amarjit Jammu, she asked me whether I would be her voice in this afternoon’s debate. I am happy to be that and the voice of many other people. If there is one thing that we have established early on in this debate, it is that it is a debate of entire legitimacy. To say that this issue is something of which we should not speak is wrong; however, to say that it is something that we could inflame is a matter that we must consider. Whether we have a constituency interest in this matter, have a birth line connected to the region or are simple humanitarians—citizens of this planet—we have a duty, an obligation and a right to debate, discuss and speak about these issues.

I commend the quality of the speakers today. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) spoke extremely movingly from his personal constituency experience. However, the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) was quite simply one of the finest speeches I have heard in Westminster Hall, if not in this House; not only does she speak from a Mirpuri background, as well as with knowledge and understanding, but she speaks with a cool humanity and decency, while looking to the future positively. I found that immensely impressive.

My hon. Friend also mentioned in passing—a few other speakers have mentioned it—the sheer heart-stopping, dazzling beauty of Kashmir. What an utter tragedy it is that this place, this heaven on Earth, is at the moment scarred by this bloody conflict. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and I have visited Kashmir on two or three occasions. We have been on Dal lake and seen the cedar houseboats bobbing silently and unused by the sides of the lake, which should be one of the great tourist attractions of the world. We have also seen Gulmarg, and even the 100 Pipers whisky distillery nestling in the highlands, as well as St Andrew’s church. Overwhelmingly, what we have seen in Kashmir is a place that is the reflection of God in its beauty, but also where there is horror, sadness and tragedy. In addition to the places I have mentioned, there is the plateau, Kargil and the line of control. There is a frozen conflict, taking place in temperatures many degrees below zero, in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.

Can we nail, once and for all, the suggestion that the Indian army would be in this place—where soldiers can only serve for 12 hours at a time before they have to be evacuated, before being moved back in again—if it were not for the fact that if they were not there the cross-border problem would be so serious, damaging and cataclysmic? Their presence is absolutely essential. Soldiers do not fight, or stand guard on watchtowers, in sub-zero temperatures and in such an inhospitable environment unless it is utterly essential. That is why the Indian army is there.

We have an answer; we have the Simla agreement of 1972. One of the most important things that we can do today is to recognise the good that is being done in Kashmir. There is some movement towards rapprochement and we should hail that movement.

Some years ago—I think it was in 2002 or 2003—my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North visited Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed. I well remember that the economic issues in Kashmir then were the preponderant ones. His daughter, Mehbooba Mufti, was working on a hydro-electric project then to provide free energy to some villages from Kashmir’s ample—indeed, massive—and wonderful supply of fast-flowing waters. It was that type of issue that mattered. One thing that must arise from this debate is not only a recognition of this most tragic of long-standing conflicts but the need to consider—not only from our perspective in this country but, I hope, from the perspective of the EU—offering assistance in nation-building, including providing economic support, assistance and advice.

Let us look at the positives. The devastating and horrendous floods in the region have been mentioned many times, as has the reaction of the Indian Government. On his recent visit to Jammu and Kashmir, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has shown the hand of friendship in a most conciliatory way. His letter of 7 September to Nawaz Sharif, offering all possible assistance in the region, is one of the most important developments in Indian-Pakistan relations. The fact that Prime Minister Modi invited Prime Minister Sharif to his inauguration has already been mentioned. That is the hand of friendship being offered. It is a move towards two great nations coming together, and not—as in the past—in a confrontational way.

Let us never forget the wise words of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood), when he spoke earlier. Quite rightly, he reminded the House that this is not simply a territorial or localised dispute; this is a dispute that has led us twice—twice—to the edge of nuclear war. It is that important; in fact, we would be derelict in our duty in this House if we did not discuss this matter.

We must give credit where it is due. I make no bones about it: I have visited Narendra Modi. I am sorry to keep mentioning my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North—Members must have the impression that he and I have spent most of our time travelling the world together, which is not true at all—but we visited Narendra Modi. When I think of Narendra Modi’s reputation in the early days, compared with the conciliatory peacemaker that we now see today, it is quite extraordinary. That approach of friendship and bilateral resolution to the problem—assisted, advised, supported and endorsed by other democratic institutions—represents the best way forward.

[Mr Khalid Mahmood]

Will my hon. Friend confirm, unlike the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), that wherever there are human rights abuses—India, Pakistan, China, wherever—they should be investigated, and investigated properly?

[Stephen Pound]

I am happy to respond to my hon. Friend by saying: precisely so. Of course that should be the case. Equally, however, we must look at the solution. I make no apologies for returning to the contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood. I sincerely hope that her words are studied in Islamabad and Delhi, because they were the wisest and most sensible words we have heard today. We have not yet heard from the Minister—he may exceed them—but we should take those words with us from this meeting, because they are the words of someone who knows more about this subject than almost anyone else here in Westminster Hall, and who sees a future and a positive way forward.

This has been an extraordinarily well informed, well attended and well supported debate; it is a tribute to those constituents and friends who have contacted us about this issue that there has been such a good turnout today. I freely give credit to the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) for quite rightly feeling the temperature of the House and calling this debate today and to the Backbench Business Committee for endorsing it.

Let this debate not be remembered as one of recrimination, point-scoring and finger-pointing. Let it mark the point at which we start to look forward to a brighter tomorrow, and move towards a coming-together of two democratic nations that we in this country have very close ties and links with, and that I hope we will always support. Then, may the people of Jammu and Kashmir—that beautiful but benighted part of the world—enjoy the peace and civilised society that they more than deserve and that is too long overdue.