Bus Services Bill [Lords]

Debate between Kevin Foster and Rob Marris

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster]

I was on a bus last Wednesday. Yes, I do know where that quote comes from but, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, the focus is on what we are doing today. To be blunt, if bus deregulation was such a bad thing, Labour Governments had 13 years—I believe that the right hon. Gentleman was in the Cabinet—in which to change the system.

Things have moved on with public transport, and sometimes we need to be careful about instantly ascribing cause and effect. Car ownership, and particularly households owning more than one car, has increased hugely since the early 1980s. We can debate whether that is a good thing. In many parts of urban built-up areas that were designed for no vehicles, the fact that households have multiple vehicles has created a range of problems. That has inevitably had an impact on how many people use a bus in such an area, but that is not to say that we should not wish to have quality transport systems.

When we talk about bus priority measures, I am loth to look at how they could apply everywhere. They can make sense in congested urban centres, but they will not make a huge difference in parts of Torbay. We do not have a major central business district or a huge morning rush hour. Local authorities need to be able to choose what makes sense for their areas, rather than our coming up with an arbitrary idea and thinking that if something works in one area, it will automatically work in another.

I can remember dealing with operators in the west midlands. We often heard members of the public refer to the fact that buses were running empty, and we made the point that those services were being run not by the council, but by a commercial operator, which was paying the bill for them. I told them that it would be a bit bizarre for me to write to the operator demanding that it provided fewer services around my ward to deal with that problem.

Before services had to operate commercially, there was an issue with the tight regulatory structure, as it made adaptation and change difficult. For example, there would be services to factories that did not exist anymore, or those that did not reflect new and growing populations. Although it is important that we give areas—particularly mayoral combined authorities—the powers to shape services and integrated transport networks, we do not want to go back to the days when, in theory, a committee would argue for half an hour about exactly where a bus should run through a local housing estate. That is not an appropriate plan for the future.

We have heard lots of references to local services in this debate. I hope that the Bill will help councils such as the Torbay unitary authority to deal with situations such as the one that we are having with the Local Link services. A small bus company—it is not the main provider in Torbay—has announced that it will withdraw all 16 of its services from 1 April. It did that not following consultation, but by putting the relevant notice in to the transport commissioners. The services do not operate on the main routes, but they do provide social value, particularly for the elderly population. When we analysed the services, it was interesting to find that 83% of passengers were using the concessionary bus pass scheme. That is perhaps not a huge surprise, given the demographics of Torbay, but it was quite surprising to see just how much pensioners valued the services, particularly buses 60 and 61, which serve Preston, and 62, which serves Cockington village.

I hope that the Bill will give councils the opportunity to work with operators. I know that Torbay Council is already working quite constructively with an operator—I have been asked not to name it publicly—to try to find a solution to the problems on many of the routes. We are also looking at bringing on board a not-for-profit model. The Torbay Community Development Trust is looking at how it can provide services, effectively as a social enterprise. Some of the routes will provide enough to enable it to wash its face—cover its costs—but will not provide any form of commercial return. That is why this debate is both timely and welcome, because we can see what is happening in Torquay and Paignton today, and I am able to stand here as the local MP and look at possible solutions.

Although the Government will look at individual cases when it comes to franchising powers, I hope that such powers are automatically given only to mayoral or combined authorities. This is partly about having a bulk. Some people in Torbay might think that we could run our own bus services but, in reality, we would inherently be dependent on neighbouring areas.

It is also right that we should know the name of the person who can take decisions so that we can hold them to account—they might be the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) or Councillor Anstee in Greater Manchester in the near future. People should be aware of who those people are. That situation is very different from that of the old integrated transport authorities. If we had asked people to name the chairman of the authority in their area, most would be unable to do so. There would be less direct accountability for people serving on those authorities because they were indirectly appointed by local councils. There was not the ability for someone to say, “Actually I voted for this person,” or, if they did not vote for them, to say, “This person was elected”—I suspect that I might have that experience if I lived in one or two of the areas concerned.

This is about holding someone to account for how they use their power, rather than power being handed to a local authority in a similar way to under the quality contract scheme, which was not a practical thing to use and not of an appropriate scale. Likewise, decisions will not be made in a back room by people who might have an indirect mandate, but one that is not as strong as the mandate of a directly elected mayor.

I very much welcome the Bill. Obviously there will be a fair amount of debate as it goes through Committee and its remaining stages, but I welcome the general tenor of today’s debate. This is a Bill whose time has come. We can all debate whether it is on time and, indeed, whether more transport legislation is just round the corner—

[Rob Marris]

Driverless buses?

[Kevin Foster]

There could even be driverless buses. It would be interesting to see how they would go down with passengers, given that many people—particularly older people—value a familiar driver. Whether they could have a similar relationship with the friendly robot welcoming them on board is another matter. However, 10 or 15 years ago, the idea of driverless vehicles on our roads was unimaginable. Now they are on their way, although I am not necessarily advocating that we should have them.

This is a good Bill that focuses on local transport services, and I think that it is one that will deliver. The Government’s intentions are right, and it is absolutely right that we give the Bill its Second Reading today.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Kevin Foster and Rob Marris

2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons
Monday 24th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) and to hear many of the points he made. He spoke of the NHS spending £262 million a year on 50 drugs; that is actually £262 million extra that we are spending on those drugs courtesy of the greatly increased prices. That really brings home the problems here and why the Bill needs its Second Reading.

As many hon. Members have already focused on a range of issues, I will focus in particular on generic drugs and some of the huge price increases we have seen. It is right to say—and this was perhaps touched on by the Secretary of State in response to the intervention by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris)—that it is not unreasonable for a pharmaceutical company to make a profit in exchange for investment in developing a new drug and bringing it to market. But that is what our patent system is for. The patent is there to protect for a period of time the ability of the company to charge a reasonable price to reflect the risk it took in its investment.

The key point is that the drugs we are considering are now out of patent. The company has had a reasonable period of time to make its investment back. The issue is that there is only a very limited supply of them. It is only right that we deal with what is an emerging business model. There can be no two ways about it. Some of the names on the list of companies, such as AMCo and Atnahs, seem consistently to have unusually high increases in prices, in the thousands of per cent. It is clear that a business model is developing to take advantage of a loophole in the legislation and ultimately not to make a profit but to profiteer, at the expense of the NHS and people who need those treatments. I am sure we can all think of instances where drug company lobbying points to patients who are unable to get treatment; this is exactly the sort of thing that means people cannot get treatment.

It was highlighted earlier that it is slightly ironic that here we are, as Conservatives and under a Conservative Government, arguing for price controls. But this is not about intervening in a market but about intervening to deal with market failure, where the normal procedures of competition are not producing a fair or reasonable outcome either for the NHS or for the patients on whose behalf we are providing products.

I went to see the amazing work being done on brain tumour research at Plymouth University recently—the skills and the groundbreaking research that will bring real benefits. But that is not the business model of the companies the Bill deals with. Their model is to look for a drug that needs to be prescribed and has only one supply, then buy it, get hold of the supply and jack the price up. That is nothing to do with delivering new and innovative products. The Bill is therefore very welcome, as it looks to intervene in that situation.

It is also right that to be able to tackle the problem we need information. Let us be blunt; if a company is looking to put its product price up by 12,000% it is not going to be particularly co-operative with an inquiry into whether that is fair, so it is right that the Secretary of State will have powers to require that more information be supplied.

[Rob Marris]

I am grateful to my new friend, another socialist, for giving way. May I tempt him to suggest some other areas of the economy where he and what I must now call his Christian Democrat fellows would be prepared to address the issue of profiteering, as we on the Opposition Benches would?

[Kevin Foster]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me, but I see you are now in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, and you are very tough on any irrelevant points or points off subject, so that could be very dangerous territory.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Marris]

May I suggest another industry it might be worth looking at, where this situation obtains, namely the defence supply industry—not all of it, but parts of it?

[Kevin Foster]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. As a member of the Public Accounts Committee I have spent plenty of time looking through examples of defence procurement that went wrong. The Minister might be new to the Department of Health but he certainly is not new to defence procurement. It is noticeable that much of what now makes its way to the PAC for a review of what went wrong concerns legacy issues—for example, the military flying contract—rather than modern procurement. But I am conscious that with Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair I need to get back to the price of drugs for the NHS.

Looking through the evidence it is clear that the current system of regulation is not effective. Companies can, in effect, put their branded products into the voluntary scheme and use that as a way of jacking up costs for their generic products. That is just not right. As other Members have touched on, we are facing demands and pressures on the NHS. I have no problem with companies that give a good service charging a fair price and making a fair return on their investment.

That is clearly not what is going on with this business model. We can see numerous examples, in particular in the chart put together by the House of Commons Library, which shows increases of thousands of per cent. across a number of products. It is impossible to believe that such increases are going on for any of the input materials for those products. As we have said, this is flagrant racketeering and profiteering at the expense of patients and of people in pain. Even if the drug is still provided, that money should have been spent on other NHS services.

I am therefore pleased at the almost unanimity breaking out in the House on the proposals. They will clearly need to be discussed in more detail in Committee. But it is the right time for the Bill. It is not about tackling fair and legitimate profits but about getting rid of profiteering, which is why it has my full support.