Standards

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

Let me first say to the Leader of the House that we did point out the issues about Members of the House of Lords not having constituents and that a suspension from this House meant a suspension of pensions and salaries as well. The reason we used the analogy in this case is that a Member of the other place was caught by the same sting, for want of a better expression, and we therefore thought it right and proper that we ought to look at it.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to set out why the Committee on Standards considered that Mr Mercer’s actions merited, as we have heard, the longest suspension since 1947, with only one exception, which, as Members will know, ended up in the criminal courts with a conviction.

The House is a place for policy debate, which happens formally in the Chamber and informally outside it. Members do their best to explore different points of view and to establish the underlying facts, and almost every Member works closely with external groups to do so. That is entirely legitimate. The Leader of the House mentioned the Committee’s report on all-party groups. He will see in that report, which we are pleased to be debating next week, that my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey), stated very clearly in her evidence that lobbying is part of the parliamentary process. Members talk to a lot of people, they listen to a lot of people, and then they make up their minds. The rules allow MPs to have external interests, but they do not permit paid advocacy. It is not acceptable to receive money in return for acting in Parliament or to use your position as an MP to get advantage, either for yourself or another person. That has been against the rules for centuries. Members who do this undermine our democracy. As this case shows, it is not possible to evade the rules simply by paying lip service to them; Members’ actions matter.

I remind the House that this case is not, like many cases that have grabbed the headlines for many years now, a legacy case from the expenses scandal of 2004 to 2009. It is not a legacy—it happened during the lifetime of this Parliament. That puts some of our feelings into perspective. I hope that Members will read and take notice of what we have said.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

On legacy cases, was my right hon. Friend surprised to see the chairman of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority quoted recently on the front page of a Sunday newspaper criticising the process, despite the existence of a memorandum of understanding on these matters between this House and IPSA?

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 10th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The point is made: as long as right hon. and hon. Members are standing to speak in that debate, I shall be in my Chair.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

We now have a women’s Minister who could not also have the equalities brief because she voted against gay marriage, and an equalities Minister who said that there were no women members of the Monetary Policy Committee because it was appointed on merit. May we have the novel innovation of a joint statement by the women’s Minister and the equalities Minister so that we can find out whether they are singing from the same song sheet?

[Mr Lansley]

I know both the new equalities Minister and the new women’s Minister very well, and the hon. Gentleman is on a very sticky wicket in attempting to criticise them.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend once again shows his consistent pursuit of the interests of his constituents, and I completely understand that. He will understand that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the merits of the project before all the statutory processes have been completed. Now that the petitioning period has ended, the matter is in the hands of the Chairman of Ways and Means and his counterpart in the Lords, and I am sure that they will give it consideration in a timely manner.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

This question genuinely requires just a yes or no answer. Can the Leader of the House confirm, as per the coalition agreement, that there will definitely be a debate and vote on the repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 during this Parliament?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman may want a yes or no answer, but he will not get one. As must always be the case, the answer is subject to the progress of business and an agreement that we will bring such a measure forward at any time.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 13th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. He may have heard how positively the Prime Minister feels about the way in which reshoring opportunities have been used in recent years to help boost the 1.6 million private sector jobs that have been created since the election and the very positive steps taken in relation to manufacturing. I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend tell the House about Claro Precision Engineering and I hope that many other companies will share in the sense that they can do more here and not outsource and offshore their activities to other countries as much.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

May we have a debate about altering the fixed-term provisions to four rather than five years? As has been intimated, the coalition currently resembles the characters from the film, “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court”, who sang:

“We’re busy doing nothing, working the whole day through, trying to find lots of things not to do.”

We could then have a general election in May and a change of Government.

[Mr Lansley]

Is that where it comes from? I thought it was the dwarfs in “Snow White” who sang that, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman is right, because his knowledge of music is so much greater than mine. Perhaps he should stick to music. I have no immediate plans for any debate on revision of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am glad to say that my colleagues from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are in their places on the Front Bench and I know that they will continue to raise this issue with the Environment Agency. My hon. Friend will also have heard what the Prime Minister had to say about this. I hope that he is therefore assured that we are taking every step we can to give people access to high quality information in a way that does not impose unacceptable costs on them.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

May we have an urgent debate or question on the Government’s approach to local television? In Northern Ireland and England, the new local television services will be allocated channel 8 on Freeview, but in Wales and Scotland, the plan is to allocate them channel 26. These are public service broadcasting entities which should have due prominence under the legislation. Will the Leader of the House ask Ministers to come to the House to tell us what they are doing to ensure that those channels are given more prominent status on Freeview?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me to reach back into my past as a member of the Puttnam commission and the Standing Committee on the Communications Act 2003, but my recollection is that the Act gave the responsibility to Ofcom. I will therefore ask my colleagues at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to check with Ofcom and respond to him on the points that he raises.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question and I think that the whole House will be grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for a debate to commemorate Holocaust memorial day next Thursday. Recently, of course, we received the findings of a survey by the EU Agency for Fundamental Rights showing that, regrettably, two thirds of respondents considered anti-Semitism to be a problem, while three quarters said that the situation had got worse over the past five years. While that survey found that the UK Jewish community had more confidence in the authorities here and were less nervous about anti-Semitism than communities elsewhere in Europe, there are too many anti-Semitic incidents, so we need to work actively with civil society to challenge anti-Semitism through education and better reporting, and by tackling hate crime.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

As we have heard about Ministers’ acting lessons, may we have a written statement from the Prime Minister about the cast of characters—the 96—who wrote to him about the European Union, because do not the public and this House have a right to know who are the principal players in the Euro soap opera that is the current Conservative party?

[Mr Lansley]

As I understand it, the premise of the hon. Gentleman’s question is flawed in that the reference to money being paid for drama lessons was in relation to civil servants, not Ministers.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am responsible for establishing the responsibility deal, which is there for the Government to work together with health organisations and experts and the industry in order to improve public health. There is a programme of measures under the responsibility deal. That is why the issue of sugar is coming forward. We took action on salt and on fast food with the publication of calorie data—there has been an enormous increase in the visibility of calorie information on fast food and at food outlets on the high street. The hon. Lady’s response may simply reflect the fact that this is not intended to be a wide-ranging debate on all issues relating to public health; it is a focused agenda agreed between the parties.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the Chancellor’s failed bank levy, which we now discover has fallen £2 billion short of what it was supposed to collect at a time when the Chancellor is speaking with relish about taking billions of pounds off the most sick and disabled people in this country? Is it not typical that it is not those with the broadest shoulders who get targeted; it is those who are limping already?

[Mr Lansley]

My recollection is that in the autumn statement the Chancellor further increased the contribution from banks through a special levy, but, to respond to the hon. Gentleman’s question, I have announced that the Opposition are intending to have a debate on issues relating to banking next Wednesday during which he will no doubt have an opportunity to make his point and hear the reply.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 19th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am glad my hon. Friend has had an opportunity to raise that. I am sure that many Members across the House share his evident pleasure at the establishment of the all-party group and the fact that so many Hindus from across the country came here to celebrate it. I cannot promise a debate at the moment—he will understand the pressure on legislative time. As a member of the Backbench Business Committee, he will understand how precious its time is, too, but it might be able to give the matter the necessary priority in due course.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the House’s recesses? We talked earlier about September sittings. Is it not ludicrous that we come back for two weeks and then have the party conferences for three weeks before coming back again? May we have a debate on moving the party conferences to the early part of September so that the House can have a clear run through? And merry Christmas!

[Mr Lansley]

And a merry Christmas to the hon. Gentleman.

I do not think that the arrangement is ludicrous; it is conventional. We will take that suggestion away, as we regularly look at these matters, but I do not hold out any immediate promise to him.

Business of the House

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am interested to learn about this from my hon. Friend as, I am sure, are my hon. Friends at the Department for Communities and Local Government. If the matter relates to the Health and Safety Executive in particular, the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, our hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), who I know takes a common-sense view of things, will be happy to talk to my hon. Friend about how such provisions are properly applied in this case.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Later today we will debate the cost of this place and the savage cuts being imposed on it. At the same time the Government are creating more Lords at the other end of the building. The other place is a model of care for the elderly. May we have a debate on introducing a retirement age in the House of Lords so that this massive job creation scheme can at least be brought under some sort of control?

[Mr Lansley]

I was not quite sure where the hon. Gentleman was going with that. We will of course have an opportunity to debate the finances of this place. It is a bit rich for any Labour Member to talk about savage cuts. In order to reduce the deficit, we have as a matter of necessity to reduce the costs of administration, and we are doing so in this place in the same way as is being done in other public services. I am not sure whether those in the other place would take kindly to the way in which the hon. Gentleman expressed himself. They have done a lot of work on the Care Bill and we are looking forward to seeing that. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill being promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) which, if passed, would allow Members in another place not simply to have leave of absence, which they do at present, but to retire.

Finances of the House of Commons

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman rightly pays tribute to the staff of this House, and the report refers to our desire to be an “exemplary employer”. Will he confirm that no one working in this place is employed on a zero-hours contract and that staff receive at least the London living wage?

[John Thurso]

I can confirm both those points. Indeed, this was going to be my first substantive point. I suggest that I come right on to it and make my points; if the hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with them, he can intervene on me again.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Thurso]

The sums are fully provided for, as the hon. Gentleman would expect. I cannot tell him off the top of my head exactly what they are, including all the elements; if I may, I will write to him. It is obviously several million pounds, but I do not know exactly how many several million, and I would not wish to give the House the wrong information.

When I was saying earlier that I once re-engineered two businesses, I thought, “I know exactly what I would say to that if I was sitting somewhere else in the House”, and the hon. Gentleman has not disappointed me. Of course we are not a business going bust, but in looking at costs, any organisation can look hard at what it is setting out to do and the way it is setting out to do it. We now use iPads and we have radically changed our hours, so how and when we do things have changed out of all recognition, in just a decade. It is therefore right that we look at these issues, and clearly there has to be change.

I turn to income generation, an issue that I anticipate the Chairman of the Administration Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), will fill the House in on if he catches your eye, Mr Speaker. Parliament, in addition to being a working institution, is an iconic visitor attraction and world heritage site, so it is right that we develop ways of making it available to visitors. It is also right that we retrieve the costs of that. The principles, which I have set out before, are, first, that Parliament is a working institution and its work as Parliament takes primacy over all other activities. Secondly, all citizens have a right to access their MP on all aspects of the legislative process without let or hindrance or charge. Subject to those two overriding principles, however, the House has a duty to open to visitors as much as it can, and to recover the costs involved. The three relevant areas are: the development of more commercial tours; the development of retail activity; and the use of the banqueting facilities by outsiders.

[Kevin Brennan]

It is that last point that disturbs quite a few colleagues in the House. Point 26 of the financial plan talks about

“commercial hire on a limited number of occasions”

and

“on an experimental basis”.

We have managed to survive as a Parliament for several hundred years without having to hire ourselves out, in some cases to the very commercial interests that caused the austerity that has resulted in our cutting our budgets. It would be ironic, would it not, if the bankers were sipping champagne in the people’s Parliament because we needed to raise money as a result of the damage they had caused. I believe that that is a line we should not cross.

[John Thurso]

I completely respect the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but there are huge amounts of time when we are in recess and not sitting here. Our dining rooms and banqueting rooms are very good facilities that match the best facilities offered by the livery halls and other venues. If we can operate during those times to make money that can be put towards restoration and renewal, for example, that is an absolutely legitimate thing to do.

[Kevin Brennan]

No, it is wrong in principle.

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman and I will disagree about this. Last year an amendment was tabled on the subject, and it was duly defeated. I completely understand his point, and it is critical that the people who have access to this place are properly vetted, but if venues such as Buckingham Palace can open in this way, I see no reason why we cannot do so. We should also be able to recover the costs involved. Clearly we should not charge for room hire for Member-organised events while we are working here, but otherwise, I believe that this is the right thing to do. The House, with its customary caution in these matters, is doing it on the basis of a two-year trial, which is being overseen by the Administration Committee. At the end of that time, we will be able to see how it is going.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Thurso]

I can confirm that there is no charge for events undertaken by Members, and there is a 25% discount on events for outsiders that are sponsored by a Member. There is no discount on events that are run purely by outsiders. That is my understanding, but I will happily confirm that to him.

[Kevin Brennan]

rose—

[Mr Jenkin]

rose—

[John Thurso]

I will give way to the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) and then I want to move on.

[Kevin Brennan]

I was endeavouring to organise an event, on behalf of an all-party group, and was told that there was a minimum charge of £750 for the Terrace marquee. Does that square with the point that the hon. Gentleman is making?

[John Thurso]

I really do not want to go further in making comments when I do not have fully accurate data in front of me. In my role as president of the Tourism Society of the United Kingdom, I am sponsoring an event next March, and it is on the same conditions as the event last March. There might be a cut-off for events that are already booked, which is why I might not have the full facts. I will, if I may, come back to the hon. Gentleman and make sure that everyone who is in the Chamber is fully aware of exactly what is happening.

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[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) and to be called to speak in the same debate as the Chairman of the Administration Committee, the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), who is looking rather less bleary-eyed than I expected having no doubt been up all night watching the Australians collapse in the opening test.

Several years ago, there was a by-election where the Labour party did not do particularly well, and a then Labour Minister, who I will not name for obvious reasons, went on the radio to explain our poor showing and said that the reason Labour voters had stayed at home was that they were clearly very happy with what the Labour Government were doing. Looking around the Chamber at today’s attendance, I wonder whether some colleagues may wish to draw the same conclusion—that the reason there are not as many colleagues here as there might have been is that they are so delighted with the work that has been done by the Commission under your chairmanship, Mr Speaker, the Administration Committee and the Finance and Services Committee. It is surprising that many of the MPs who on previous occasions have complained vocally have not come along or tabled an amendment. I therefore assume that they are broadly content or have no better plans for how to make the necessary savings. I appreciate the incredibly difficult job that you, Mr Speaker, and your fellow Commission members have in trying to come up with those savings. I am struck by the fact that at a time when we are always preaching across the House about the need to make savings, some Government Members are asking for more money. That is very difficult to justify to our constituents. We must get better at spending the limited resources that we have.

I want to address three of the areas that have been covered so well today. First, on the catering and retail services, the Administration Committee has made it absolutely clear—I do not think I am speaking out of turn in saying that the Commission shares this view—that it is ludicrous that we have in the Palace of Westminster two sets of catering and two sets of retail outlets that are run completely separately. I know from the Clerk of the House and from you, Mr Speaker, that there is genuine good will towards the idea of seeking to merge the two services. I hope that my hon. Friend the shadow Leader of the House will set out the Labour party’s position and the Leader of the House will set out the Government’s position on whether that is a good idea. We could achieve significant savings for the taxpayer that would help us to fund other services if we were to persuade the House of Lords that while the House of Commons is making real savings, it must do more at its end of the building to bring down costs.

On the broader point about catering costs, I fully support the work that has been done by the right hon. Gentleman who ably chairs the Administration Committee in bringing forward proposals not to make money from charities but to offset the costs. A new set of charges is in place for a trial period, as of course you fully know, Mr Speaker, because it is costing the House money to provide our facilities to outside organisations.

[Kevin Brennan]

Just for clarity, let me say that in objecting to this House being hired out to certain organisations, I am not talking about charities but about corporate interests.

[Thomas Docherty]

I think we can all agree that pop bands would certainly not be classed as having a corporate identity. We are all looking forward to the world-famous parliamentary pop band MP4 entertaining us in a few weeks’ time. I am sure that you will be coming along to the Strangers Bar to see them on 10 December, Mr Speaker. I hope that that will generate some extra revenue. We all commend that excellent band for what they are doing.

My hon. Friend makes a valid point about which are the right organisations to bring in. The Administration Committee and the Commission have looked at this very carefully. We are saying that it would not be open to any organisation—there will be a vetting process—and it will be for the House itself, through the Chairman of the Administration Committee and the Committee more widely, to ensure that only appropriate organisations come here. I know that my hon. Friend is phenomenally busy doing a fantastic job in our education team, but if he wanted to come and have a chat with the Committee about the type of organisation that he would not like to see here, I am sure that we could reach a suitable accommodation with him.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful for that clarification, Mr Speaker.

If my hon. Friend or other Members on both sides of the House have genuine concerns about specific organisations they do not think are appropriate to be using our facilities, I am sure that the Administration Committee and the Commission would be happy to hear representations from them. The intention is not to turn Parliament into a Disneyland, as an hon. Member who is not here has said previously, or to rent it out to any old organisation. My hon. Friend makes a valid point, because some organisations have, in the business parlance, a reputational risk for Parliament. At the same time, we need to offset the cost of running Parliament and, as you have set out, Mr Speaker, we cannot simply keep going back to the taxpayer to ask for more money. We have to look not only to reduce our costs but to offset them wherever possible.

Concern has been expressed on both sides of the House about charities being charged, but the fact is that it costs us money to make these facilities available, and charities have a 25% discount on their hire charges because we recognise that they are not-for-profit organisations. We do not seek to prohibit or inhibit the ability of charities and other organisations to use our facilities—we very much welcome it—but we have to make sure that we are not, in effect, subsidising those charities.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am sorry to intervene again; my hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. I think it is impossible to distinguish between different corporate interests. There will be issues of controversy with regard to all sorts of corporate interests. There might even be an issue of controversy in this House, which we will then be hiring out to those organisations. I think it would be better—I will not make this point again—if we simply stuck to charities that are registered with the Charity Commission; then we would all know where we were.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am genuinely grateful for my hon. Friend’s comment, but where I disagree with him, with the greatest respect, is that we already rent out to the private sector. If Members were to walk down the Dining Room Corridor at 8 am every morning, they would see each Dining Room being used for breakfast. A large number of those breakfast events are—

[Kevin Brennan]

Sponsored by Members.

[Thomas Docherty]

But they are paid for by businesses. If Members were to go to the Terrace Pavilion every evening, they would see receptions taking place that have been paid for by companies.

[Kevin Brennan]

Sponsored by Members.

[Thomas Docherty]

The Dining Rooms also have events that are paid for by companies. My hon. Friend keeps saying from a sedentary position that they are sponsored, but that will not change; it is just that it is the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden, in his capacity as Chairman of the Administration Committee, who will be the sponsoring Member. In the same way that individual Members currently sponsor events during sitting times—it is up to hon. Members to make those decisions—the Administration Committee seeks to do so during recess.

I honestly do not see the difference. If my hon. Friend is genuinely saying that private organisations should not be able to hold breakfast, lunch, dinner or drinks receptions, that is a legitimate position, although I do not agree with it. I think that saying that it is okay for an individual Member to do it, but that it is not okay for the right hon. Gentleman to do it, is a false divide.

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[Andrew Miller]

I could not agree with my hon. Friend more. Indeed, I did a gig for the outreach unit in his constituency, which was linked to the activities of the British Science Association. It was a hugely successful event. The young man who services the outreach unit in Durham is a first-rate example of what my hon. Friend is talking about.

I want to talk a little about what we are doing with electronic devices.

[Kevin Brennan]

Before my hon. Friend moves on to his iPad, may I return to the intervention by the distinguished Chair of the Administration Committee, in which he made the point that things will not change? When I inquired recently about the Terrace marquee, I was told that for an all-party group that does not represent any commercial interests—the all-party group on folk arts, in fact—the room hire alone would cost £750, which meant that the event could not take place. It is bad enough to have to get sponsorship for the catering, but having to pay £750 is prohibitive for a Member who chairs an all-party group.

[Andrew Miller]

That is exactly the point that I want to make. Many of the events to which I am referring are sponsored by me, but financed by learned societies, which by definition are not-for-profit organisations. They get trapped in the same way. That is why I invite the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden and his Committee to take a fresh look at the interpretation of the proposals.

As you know, Mr Speaker, my Select Committee was one of the first to take up the challenge of using electronic communications. Somebody said that if the Science and Technology Committee were not prepared to do it, either we had the wrong people on the Committee or we were asking the wrong question. It has been an interesting experiment. It has the potential to generate savings. The innovation was prompted by the need to make savings, but there are other drivers of it. It will allow multi-media, audio-visual and social media mechanisms to develop within the Committee structure and within the House more generally. Those elements need to be factored in, although some of them would be easier to achieve during a major refurbishment of the House.

I was on the old Information Committee in the days when we took the decision to move away from 405-line televisions and to use 625-line televisions with the cabling that we use now. That was the wrong decision and it was done on the cheap. We went for copper instead of the blown fibre that we should have used, because the costs were enormous and the House rejected that option.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) is right that a radical decision must be taken, whether we like it or not. When we get to that point, we need to have a comprehensive, strategic plan for how the communications systems will be developed. The opportunities would be endless if one had open access to this building to put in modern systems.

The experiment with iPads has thrown up some interesting new ways of working, but it has also thrown up challenges. With the of greatest respect to the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), who made a brilliant presentation, he had under his arm a 2 inch-thick file of papers, because such detailed accountancy work cannot be done on an iPad. The software systems that are available are not up to the multitasking approach that one must adopt when dealing with complex projects. With the current technology, it is difficult to make the drafting of a Select Committee report a genuinely paperless process, which would be the ultimate conclusion of this approach, but developments in technology will assist in that. There will therefore be ongoing costs associated with the experiment. I hope that the Finance and Services Committee will ensure that those costs are supported properly.

I understand that the Committee Office is committed to saving more than £1 million through the digital-first programme, but that will not happen without investment, because it is an invest-to-save programme. We must consider the cost of iPads and the fact that they have a finite life. Given the way in which Members have to move around within this building and between here and their constituencies, I guess that the typical life of an iPad will be no more than a couple of years. Ongoing costs will therefore be associated with the project.

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[Andrew Miller]

I was going to say that I did not mean Tory MPs by that, but we are facing serious problems. Through an interest in this building, some years ago I made a film about its geology. That resulted in me getting into places where most right hon. and hon. Members never go, such as the roof of the House of Lords or down in the basement. I have been down and looked at some of the structural issues, which are potentially very concerning, and we should not ignore the possibility that the subject of decanting might come up quicker than we thought. Against that background, when considering expenditure plans we must be prepared to say that a lot of them might have to be put on hold if an interim report suggests that things are as serious as they appear.

My final point is to the Leader of the House and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. One cost we are bearing—I do not know the exact figures, but they would be possible to calculate; I do not know whether the Finance and Services Committee has done that—concerns the terms during which we sit, particularly the September sitting. I fully understand the argument used by the late Robin Cook and subsequently the current Government about the merits of the September sitting, but is a bit of a myth. If we shifted those two weeks to either end of the summer period, what savings could be built into the restoration and repair programme during that period? I think they would be quite significant, and the House needs to look at that as another way of saving money.

[Kevin Brennan]

Part of the reason for it being a problem is because of the party conferences. Would it be sensible for the parties to get together and move their conferences to earlier in September? Then the House could return before the end of September without the need for this peculiar and expensive break.

[Andrew Miller]

That is why I addressed my remarks to the Front Benchers. There is place for a discussion about how we can avoid the silly coming-back for two weeks, which causes breaks in repair and maintenance contracts and disrupts a lot of organisation in the building. We need mature dialogue about how we can return to a more sensible approach—my hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head.

In summary, in some areas we can work towards savings based on the way we work, whether the September sitting or the use of electronic tools. All those issues require serious, mature thinking, and some up-front investment. The Visitor Centre will command support only if it is seen to be a genuine investment for a long-term facility, and I worry that the possible juxtaposition of the two projects might mean that it ends up as an investment that never gets its full use. As I said, I urge the House to use every possible resource to resolve the HR issues. Having spent 15 years in HR, I know that that is sometimes easier said than done, but getting things away from the courtrooms is by far the best solution and I urge everyone to work hard towards that goal.