European Union (Referendum) Bill

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Friday 22nd November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the opportunity to speak to a number of amendments in this group standing in my name. [Interruption.] Given that you ruled on this matter previously, Mr Speaker, I should also make it clear to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who is shouting at me from a sedentary position, that these are not frivolous amendments. They are serious amendments. Some are intended to probe the Government’s position; some are amendments that I will wish to put to a vote. In the last few days I have also added my name to two other amendments—amendment 77, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) and amendment 3, in the name of the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie)—because it is important that the House should make clear its views about those matters as well as the others.

I have tabled a number of the amendments in this group: amendments 9 to 13, 21 to 33, and 58 and 59. They cover different aspects of this important debate about the timing of the referendum—if it is to be held—as well as related matters, such as the number of days on which the referendum would be held. The Minister—who I assume was speaking for the Conservative party and not the Government—made it clear previously that he believes there are problems with holding a referendum in 2014. One of his arguments is that the choice should simply be between a hypothetical and at this stage undefined renegotiated position and total withdrawal. However, we do not yet know what that renegotiated position will be.

I have received representations, including from people who disagree with my pro-European approach, arguing that the choice should be between the status quo and complete withdrawal. Rather than buying a pig in a poke, we would at least know what the status quo was. That would mean that those who are hostile to the European Union can vote to leave, while those who support it as it is, but with a commitment to work to change it—there are always changes; it is not constant—will know that what they are voting for is something like what we have today.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I have studied my hon. Friend’s amendments, in particularly amendment 21, which calls for the referendum to be called on 7 May 2015. Would it not be a major error to confuse a European referendum with a general election?

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[Kevin Brennan]

I understand the point my hon. Friend is making, but in practice would it not be confusing for hon. Members to be campaigning on behalf of their political parties one moment, but in another moment having to form alliances with colleagues from other political parties on the issue of Europe? Is that not a proposition that would simply not work in practice?

[Mike Gapes]

I understand my hon. Friend’s sympathy for those Conservative Members of Parliament who might find themselves having to campaign alongside UKIP, but we know that many Conservative MPs are already trying to reach local arrangements with UKIP so that they will be unopposed at the next general election. My proposal would be a fulfilment, in practice and openly, of what is already happening under the radar.

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[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend referred to amendment 70. Is not one of the problems with that amendment the fact that the Secretary of State would be responsible for producing the report? Given that when my hon. Friend remarked on the dangers of investors withdrawing from Britain, Conservative Members shouted “Rubbish”, could we trust a Conservative Secretary of State to produce an independent report? Would it not be better for the report to be produced by an independent body?

[Phil Wilson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We need an independent report to prove why staying in Europe is vital.

Let me finish my comments on Nissan by giving some other statistics. Nissan has said that if the UK leaves the EU its export potential to Europe would be hit by 10% tariffs on exports of vehicles and 5% on components. That is a company worth consulting before embarking on a Bill, the contents of which will cause four years of uncertainty for the UK and the north-east economy.

Nissan might be 20 miles away from Stockton South, but the Hitachi Rail Europe factory is even closer. It started its construction phase this month in Newton Aycliffe in my constituency, which is adjacent to Stockton South. The president of Hitachi, Hiroaki Nakanishi, said on 10 October while speaking in Tokyo about the UK’s relationship with the EU,

“any exit…could lead to less investment”.

He also said:

“The UK should be a member of the European Union from the standpoint of our operations”,

and went on to say:

“For Japanese businesses, the UK and the Continent are very complementary”.

Rather worryingly for my constituents and, I should have thought, for those of the hon. Member for Stockton South, Mr Nakanishi also said Hitachi

“would have to reconsider how to manage our total railways business”.

Alistair Dormer, the chief executive officer of Hitachi Rail Europe, was reported in The Northern Echo on 5 November as saying:

“We regard Europe as potentially our biggest market and we should not want anything to happen that would damage the relationship and put up barriers, we should stay in”.

Hitachi’s investment will bring train building back to the north-east of England, initially creating 730 jobs with 3,000 more potentially in the supply chain. As I said, the construction phase of the factory started this month. The Secretaries of State for Transport and Business, Innovation and Skills were at the launch on 1 November.

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[Chris Williamson]

Indeed, but the problem for the Prime Minister is that he has been taken prisoner by extremists in his own party who are determined, irrespective of the national interest—their little Englander mentality has captured the Prime Minister. He is being held hostage by the Eurosceptic wing of the Conservative party and he has done a volte-face on the date of the referendum.

[Kevin Brennan]

We are offered a choice between a Speaker’s Committee made up of elected Members in amendment 62 and a kind of quango in amendment 58, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) spoke earlier. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) agree that it would be better if such a body comprised elected politicians, rather than it being some worthy appointed quango, as in amendment 58?

[Chris Williamson]

Indeed. I tabled amendment 62 and new schedule 1 to deal with that very point.

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[Mr Thomas]

I am grateful to the Speaker and to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for selecting amendment 72, which concerns the crucial issue of the wording of the proposed referendum question, as do amendments 35 to 40, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). I also hope to speak to amendment 71, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). My amendment 72 seeks to ensure there is a consultation about what the question appearing on the ballot paper will actually say.

If there were any doubt about whether this Bill was anything other than a party political stunt, we had the spectacle of the Conservative party chairman attacking the Electoral Commission when its statement about the question came out. He attacked it for raising concerns about the wording of the question to be put in any referendum. As I understand it, the Conservative party backed the establishment of the Electoral Commission as an independent force in British politics to help to enforce proper standards in the way that elections and, crucially, referendums take place. Now, because the Electoral Commission’s work produces some inconvenient truths, the Conservatives seek to rubbish it.

One would have thought that the whole House would recognise that if we are to have a referendum, we need to present a clear, impartial question that favours neither one side of an argument nor the other, in order to allow the British people a genuine choice. The great deficiency of this Bill is the lack of consultation with anybody before it emerged from Lynton Crosby’s office. The problems that the Electoral Commission has identified could have been ironed out before now if there had been a proper consultation. It is clear from the Electoral Commission’s work so far that we do not have clarity about what, in its view, the question should be, that the wording in the Bill as it stands is not appropriate and that further work by the commission to test the most appropriate options is necessary.

[Kevin Brennan]

Given my hon. Friend’s background, I am sure that he, too, will have thought of this, but given the equal status of the Welsh language in Wales, is it not also important in any consultation that this matter be considered before the question is decided, because of the possibility of confusion in the translation of the question?

[Mr Thomas]

The way in which this Bill emerged meant that the people of Gibraltar and, I suspect, the Welsh speakers of Wales and elsewhere in the UK were forgotten about. Given that context, my hon. Friend’s point is extremely well made.

[Kevin Brennan]

Just to be clear, I was not talking about Welsh speakers elsewhere in the UK, because the Welsh Language Act 1993 would not apply there and the question would therefore be in English only. However, where the Welsh language has equal legal status, surely the question should be considered in both languages before it is decided on.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes an accurate point. My point was simply that all Welsh speakers, wherever they reside, would want to ensure that the translation of the question into Welsh in Wales was properly thought through and consulted on—a point he makes extremely well.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South has done the House a service in tabling the other amendments in this group.

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[Mr Thomas]

I hope that that scenario is not presented to us, but we would clearly need to ensure that the appropriate consultation took place about any necessary changes to the referendum proposal. We know from the comments from the Minister for Europe, provoked by the hon. Member for Cheltenham, that he is not wedded to the 2017 date and can imagine situations in which the legislation might have to be scrapped or amended. Perhaps the scene that my hon. Friend has just painted is a further example that the Minister for Europe had in mind.

Perhaps those questioned by the commission could sense the more than slight disparity in the views of Government Members and the less than steadfast commitment to a referendum from the Government parties’ Minister for Europe. The Electoral Commission’s research shows that some people felt that “Do you think” sounded more like an opinion poll than a binding vote. It is for others to say whether it was with opinion polls in mind that this whole exercise was initiated by the hon. Member for Stockton South, Lynton Crosby and the Prime Minister.

The Electoral Commission recommended that the opening phrase “Do you think” should be replaced with the word “Should”. The commission has considerable expertise in this area, as I have already set out. Indeed, the commission has a range of other duties on referendums under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, including registering organisations or individuals that want to campaign in a referendum, monitoring spending on referendum campaigning in line with referendum spending limits, and acting as the chief counting officer for the referendum. As it has such duties, the commission is clearly the go-to organisation for all things referendum. The Opposition take its guidance extremely seriously. When the Minister responds to the debate, I would be interested to hear whether he is likewise prepared to stand up to the chairman of the Conservative party and take the considered views of the Electoral Commission on board.

The other key amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South deals with another problem identified by the Electoral Commission, concerning making the question clearer and improving understanding. The Electoral Commission’s research found

“low levels of contextual understanding of the European Union, with some participants having no knowledge of the European Union, or the status of UK membership of the EU, at all.”

Importantly, the issue about which we should be concerned is the fact that many participants in the Electoral Commission’s research felt that the question

“was misleading because it does not make clear that the United Kingdom is currently a member of the European Union.”

We know that that is an issue of great concern to the Conservative party. An article in The Mail on Sunday during the summer told us that frantic negotiations occurred behind closed doors as the Prime Minister bowed to Eurosceptic pressure—again, one might say—and revised the question so that voters would be asked whether the UK should “be” in the EU rather than “remain”, as in the original wording. Apparently, Conservative Eurosceptics, desperate to give their position on the referendum an edge, wanted the question to be less clear—an extraordinary ambition. I have absolutely no idea whether the piece in The Mail on Sunday is accurate, although the journalist who wrote it is not known for being wrong too often. I gently suggest to Government Members that the Mail’s piece underlines the fact that if they want to present this proposition as less of a stunt in future they must take seriously independent advice about how the question should be drafted. The 1922 committee or Lynton Crosby’s office are not the places to be doing such drafting.

While the Prime Minister may be getting bullied again by his noisy and impatient Back Benchers, Labour Members believe that we should listen to the Electoral Commission’s recommendation that the final question on the ballot paper should clearly reflect the UK’s current position within the European Union. If we are to have a referendum, the question should make it clear that the UK is already a member. We see no benefit of shrouding the issue or being purposefully unclear to the electorate. The Electoral Commission identifies a risk of there being ambiguity in the question, with the consequence that it might be misleading to some voters. Labour Members take that considerable concern seriously.

A question to the electorate that would be less ambiguous would be whether the UK should “remain” a member of the EU. The Electoral Commission found that many people felt that the question was asking them whether the United Kingdom should become a member, rather than remain a member, and thought that they were being asked to vote on the UK joining the European Union. Importantly, even those who were aware of the UK’s status as a member of the European Union agreed that the question in the Bill might be misleading. We have already had a referendum on whether the UK should join the European Union. It was proposed not in the manifesto of the Conservative party, nor in that of the Liberal Democrats, but in a Labour manifesto. The referendum was set out in a Labour White Paper and put to the electorate by a Labour Government. By tabling amendment 35, my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South is trying to avoid causing some voters to think that they are back in the 1970s. He wants to ensure that the question in any referendum that we might have is not misleading in any way.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about amendment 35, but does he agree that amendment 36 would not pass the ambiguity test? Amendment 36 proposes the question:

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”,

but it is almost impossible to answer that on a ballot paper in a referendum.

[Mr Thomas]

I am sympathetic to my hon. Friend’s point.

[Mr Thomas]

My view is reflected in amendment 72. I hope that my hon. Friend will understand if I do not dwell on his point, because I want to accelerate through the remaining points in my speech.

Through amendment 36, my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South proposes a question that gives an accurate position of the UK’s status in the EU and allows voters clearly to see the options open to them. It reflects the recommendation of the Electoral Commission, should Parliament wish to look beyond a yes-or-no question. The commission’s research highlighted the view that that question would provide equal weighting to the words “remain” and “leave”, which was thought to improve the neutrality of the question. Indeed, the commission found that question to be the “most balanced and neutral” of the options it tested, so we should take that clear recommendation on board. Its report said of the question:

“All participants understood what they were being asked and were able to answer it in the way they had intended.”

One might wonder whether that is not precisely what we want to achieve.

Given the limited time the Electoral Commission had to compile its report, there is a need for further consultation on and testing of the wording of the referendum question. The commission noted that

“it was not possible in the time available to fully explore and user test the impact of any variations to the wording”.

It would like further time for research and, especially, to consult potential referendum campaigners. Amendment 72 would build on the provisions of the 2000 Act, which led to this first useful report from the commission, by allowing further consultation to uncover any further problems in the wording of possible questions and to suggest what the wording should be.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend has made the point that the Electoral Commission has said that the wording in amendment 36 provides that balance. However, does he agree that, using the approach that was tried in the Welsh referendum on devolution in 1997, the problem could be overcome by means of wording such as, “I agree that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union” or “I do not agree that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union”? The questions would be clearly set out and voters could tick a box, whereas it would be difficult to tick a box to answer the question as stated in the amendment.