Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Kevin Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Stephen Crabb]

I do not know how to dignify that question with a response. It is a nice try to attempt to confuse the issues before us today.

I will wrap up my remarks after I have reiterated my answer to the hon. Member for Ceredigion. I am determined to get the legislation in a position that not only Assembly Members and the Welsh Government, but Members here are comfortable with—a piece of legislation that strikes the right balance and achieves our aims, which I think most fair-minded people in Wales would agree with. I will not allow this legislation, through the force of criticism from Cardiff Bay, to be changed into a piece of legislation that we are not comfortable with. As I said previously, if the Labour party were in power in the UK, its members would not take forward a Bill that delivers a separate jurisdiction. They would not be doing things that the Welsh Government are calling for.

[Kevin Brennan]

(Cardiff West) (Lab): As my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham said, these matters are intertwined. For example, 9,000 English students, many of whom are registered to vote in Cardiff, attend Cardiff University. In the recent vote we had in this House on their student maintenance grants, Welsh Members were effectively denied the opportunity to influence the ultimate outcome of that vote. Those students, who are disfranchised, have no one to vote for them. Their MP cannot represent them in such a vote because the students are registered to vote in Wales. Does the draft Bill do anything to re-enfranchise the people this Government are disfranchising?

[Stephen Crabb]

If we follow the logic of what the hon. Member for Cardiff West just said, it is an argument against devolution in the first place. Arguments about those kinds of disparities were exactly the kinds of arguments made by people who opposed devolution in the first place. The health service is another example of one of the challenges of devolution. There are English residents who are patients in Wales and Welsh residents who are patients in England. Devolution throws up those complexities. [Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

I can take a hint. There is a good argument from local government members for allowing such a committee to take place.

I hear some of the criticisms of the Bill, and I hear criticisms of the English votes for English laws mechanism. I say to the hon. Member for Wrexham, who raised the criticism, that we were making those arguments in the 1990s. We—that is to say I—lost that argument. There is a recognition that Wales will be able to do things in health and education and that England will have no part in that. It is not unfair or inconsistent to say that the English should be able to take the same decisions. Of course people will be affected by that. There always have been and always will be people who have their health treatment, or who go to school or university, on one side of the border but who live on the other side. That was the case in the 1990s, when the Welsh Assembly was set up. All the Government have done is to bring a slightly consistent view to it. If it discourages Members of the Welsh Assembly from asking for yet more powers because they are afraid that their party colleagues might lose control over other things, such as policing, then as a Unionist I am pleased about it. It is a good thing and a step forward.

[Kevin Brennan]

Disgrace.

[David T. C. Davies]

It is not a disgrace. It is no more of a disgrace than the Welsh Assembly in the first place, which I argued strongly against.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Welsh Assembly was established—the hon. Gentleman knows this well, because he and I were on opposite sides of the argument back in the late 1990s—after a long debate, after a referendum and after considerable parliamentary time and scrutiny was devoted to it. His party made Members, including himself, second-class MPs by using the mechanism of the Standing Orders of this House. It is a constitutional aberration and a disgrace.

[David T. C. Davies]

It was a manifesto commitment, and people voted for a Conservative Government because of that express manifesto commitment. If the hon. Gentleman went down to the streets of England and said, “Do you think that Welsh MPs, who are not allowed to have any say over what happens to the health service in Wales, should be able to tell the English what to do?”, I know what the answer would be. The Government are carrying out a manifesto commitment that was democratically voted for, and it is completely consistent with what Opposition Members have done. [Interruption.]