Female Genital Mutilation

Kelvin Hopkins Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 General Committees

[Karen Bradley]

The hon. Lady is also champion of the FGM issue. I thank her for her support and for her work as a member of the Serious Crime Bill Committee, in which we debated so many of these issues. She is right to highlight the point about figures, because one of the problems we have is identifying the prevalence of FGM. It is very much a hidden crime. We are only just touching on accurate evidence and information about the prevalence of FGM. Estimates are made but we need to know exactly what the position is.

The work that we have been doing with the NHS and the work that the Department of Health has been doing to ensure that we understand the prevalence of FGM across the NHS is incredibly important, as is the mandatory reporting. At the moment, I do not have the updated figures but, with mandatory reporting coming in, we are very confident that that will give us a much better estimate of the number of women and girls who have been affected by FGM in the UK. It is only by understanding the prevalence and the size of the problem that we can begin to tackle it and get into the communities to make sure that they understand what it is that we are trying to do, which is to show that this practice is totally and utterly unacceptable.

The hon. Lady asked about specialist training on FGM and I talked in my statement about the work that the Department for Education is doing to make sure that there is outreach to people, to the communities that may be affected. That includes training, of course, for those professionals who will come into contact with individuals, but there is always more that can be done and I am in no way complacent about this. We need to make sure that there is thorough awareness of this problem, that people do not feel frightened of confronting it and that they know they have the support of the Government and the public in confronting this issue.

The hon. Lady also asked about a review of FGM protection orders. We do not yet have the figures for the number of FGM protection orders—that information will be coming out shortly. Clearly, the Government look at these things constantly to make sure that they are working, they are appropriate and they are delivering what we want, which is to stop this crime happening in the first place.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I do not mince words on this. It is absolutely barbaric and incredibly cruel—we ought to say that loudly and many times so that people who indulge in this practice get the message. The figures may well be out of date but there was a table on page 10 of the document that shows—an estimate obviously—that for the number of women with FGM, of the 11 EU countries listed, Britain is the highest. For the number of girls at risk of FGM, Britain is again the highest but so far, according to this table, there have been no prosecutions at all. We are talking about tens of thousands, and possibly many more than that. Can the Minister explain why we have not had any prosecutions, or none up to that date anyway?

[Karen Bradley]

I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a particular interest in this issue. He is quite right, it is barbaric and cruel. It is child abuse. There is no way in which it can be excused or tolerated. He asked about prosecutions and pointed out the figures showing the UK to have the estimated highest prevalence of FGM in the EU. The problem with prosecutions is that this is such a hidden crime that victims have not wanted to come forward and that, often, a prosecution would involve a victim giving evidence, perhaps against their closest family members. Although the practice of FGM was originally made a criminal offence in 1985, there was not a single referral to the CPS until 2010. Referrals are now coming through. There was a prosecution that unfortunately did not result in a conviction earlier this year, but it did at least establish many of the issues that had been of concern; for example, whether infibulation or reinfibulation was part of the offence. It was quite clear from that case that they are part of the criminal offence.

I know that the CPS is looking to make sure that we can have a prosecution with a successful conviction. I think that is what we all want to see—that successful conviction. By introducing life-long anonymity for victims so that they can come forward to give evidence and know that this will not be exposed in public, by introducing mandatory reporting and by introducing, for example, the failure to protect a girl at risk of FGM as a criminal offence, I am confident that we are doing the right things to give law enforcement and the prosecution services the tools they need to get that prosecution that we all so desperately want to see.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Although the prosecution rate is still low, France has had 29 prosecutions. We have had none. Obviously France is doing something that we are not doing—is there anything we can learn from France?

[Karen Bradley]

The hon. Gentleman will know that France has a different legal system and a different evidence threshold but, absolutely, we can always learn more. We need to learn what it is in France that has given those victims the confidence to come forward and has enabled the prosecuting authorities to get the evidence they need. We believe that the measures that we have taken following the girl summit go a long way to doing that—we now need to see that prosecution. If we do nothing else today, I want to make it clear, on the record, that this Committee and this House urge law enforcement and prosecuting authorities to take this seriously and to get that prosecution.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Obviously I support and applaud what the Minister has said. Is there a confidential helpline where a family member could say, “My sister is at risk”, or something of that kind? Many young women have adjusted to a more western way of life and would want to prevent terrible things from happening, especially if it has happened to them. Is there a confidential helpline?

[Karen Bradley]

There are a number of confidential helplines and apps. I was at the launch of one app earlier this year. It provides a confidential way for people to submit their concerns to an independent, non-Government body that can help and support them. However, we need to do more, and mandatory reporting is incredibly important. I know that some professionals have had concerns about taking on that burden, but if a healthcare professional saw a patient who had been the victim of another crime, we would expect them to report it. In the same way, they should report FGM, which is clearly a horrendous crime.

The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children also runs a confidential helpline for victims and professionals, so there are places that people can go. I would be very happy to write to members of the Committee with details of those helplines if they want to share them with their constituents.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I have one more question, about girls being taken out of school for significant periods. Is there some reporting method for that? It is partly to do with forced marriage, but in certain communities, mainly from Africa and the middle east, girls are taken out of school for significant periods of time, either being taken abroad to have the FGM done there or even having it done within Britain and not being well enough to go back to school.

[Karen Bradley]

Again, the hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. The reason why we introduced protection orders at the beginning of the school holidays was that we know that is a time when girls can be taken out of the UK to be cut. The families know that the girls will come back to a new class, and possibly even a new school if they are moving from primary to secondary school.

The hon. Gentleman is right that girls leaving school for a significant period of time can be an indicator of FGM, and I know that there is multi-agency working across the country to look carefully at that. Reports can be made to multi-agency safeguarding hubs and, of course, to the NHS helpline. We have also published multi-agency guidance, which, as I have said, we are putting on a statutory footing. That includes information for schools and teachers on what to look out for.

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[Kelvin Hopkins]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans.

The fact that we have had no prosecutions for FGM gives the impression that we are approaching it on a softly, softly basis, which is not right. I applaud my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham for her words, but we have to take it much more seriously. Until we start getting prosecutions and punitive measures for those who commit these terrible acts, we are not going to make inroads. People believe they can get away with it because nothing is going to happen to them. When they think something will happen to them, they might start to take it seriously.

FGM is not a matter only for the Muslim community in general; it is associated with particular parts of the world, and there are many non-Muslim communities in Africa that practise it as well. It is right that it should be looked at in cultural terms. A news programme recently showed an interesting documentary from Kenya, where a man campaigning against FGM spoke to male tribal leaders. Although most of the operations are apparently carried out by women, men need to think about these things as well. He was making inroads and people were starting to accept that the practice was no longer acceptable in a modern civilised society. It was an impressive news item.

When things are happening that are not right, people have to be shamed. Beating up women is appalling and people have to be shamed about that. We have to think of a world in which that sort of thing does not happen at all. That is the sort of world that I want to live in and move towards. While these things go on we have to say over and again that they are barbaric, cruel and completely unacceptable in a world in which we believe—and many do—that men and women should be absolutely equal. Nobody should be oppressed because they are a woman, or indeed a man, although most of the time it is women who are oppressed.

We have to take this much more seriously than we have done so far. The practice has been illegal for more than 30 years, yet no prosecution has taken place, even though tens of thousands of women and girls have suffered. That says that we are not taking it seriously, and that we will not be until we get a number of prosecutions, with people sent to prison for doing this terrible thing. Someone who was caught torturing a person with a knife would be sent to prison. This practice should be taken that seriously.

When I first heard about FGM 20 or 30 years ago, I did not believe what I was hearing. I could not believe that sort of thing could be going on, but it clearly is and we have to be much more forceful in how we deal with it. I like to think that the message will get through to Ministers and to the legal profession that it has to be prosecuted much more effectively.

When it comes to evidence, it has been said that many girls and women have lifelong medical problems—both psychological and physical—as a result, so evidence that girls have had this done must come to medical practitioners fairly frequently. There must be ways of getting that evidence into the legal system, and perhaps persuading girls and women that it is time to speak up. Anonymity is of course crucial, because intimidation can take place. Nevertheless, we need to help women and girls to deal with this so that it does not happen to their daughters, their sisters or to future generations.

I know that I am a man, and perhaps I should not be speaking in this debate because it is about an issue that affects women, but I think that men’s attitudes have to be changed as well. We must not turn a blind eye to this. We must take it very seriously indeed. We need to see serious prosecutions, and people who commit these appalling acts should be sent to prison.

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[Kelvin Hopkins]

I do not doubt the Minister’s sincerity or the concern of the Government and Members of all persuasions, but the reality is that there has not been a prosecution in all this time. People in the communities involved come from countries that are much rougher and tougher than ours, and they think, “They’re not going to pursue us, because there have been no prosecutions.” The reality is that, however we try to approach it in a sensible, law-abiding, modern way, people in those communities really think that they can get away with it.

[Karen Bradley]

I must correct the hon. Gentleman: there has been a prosecution; it just did not lead to a successful conviction. If we look back at that situation, the reason the prosecution was brought in the first place was that this was not a family member, but a doctor who reinfibulated a woman who had just given birth; and one of the problems with that prosecution was that the victim was called as a witness for the defence. That shows the difficulty we have with this situation. We are talking about very complicated, personal situations that involve family members. I commend the Crown Prosecution Service for bringing the prosecution, but it was always going to be very difficult to get a conviction.

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[Karen Bradley]

I dispute that we are not doing enough. I absolutely share the hon. Lady’s frustration about the lack of prosecutions and successful convictions. However, the measures in the Serious Crime Act 2015 were included in response to failings or gaps in the law that this Government perceived. We have taken those steps, but she has to recognise that that does not simply change things overnight. The changes to the law apply to offences committed after the Serious Crime Act commences, and there will be a time lag, which we all have to acknowledge, while evidence is gathered and before a prosecution takes place. I want to see a prosecution and a successful conviction as much as she does but, also, I do not want to see FGM happening in the first place. The hon. Lady is right that a successful conviction would send a clear message, as it has with forced marriage, that the practice is not acceptable. We must have the deterrent of a successful conviction, but we also have to prevent this practice from happening. A conviction is, in many ways, a failure, because a crime has happened. That is not a success; a success is preventing it from happening.

The hon. Member for Luton North and my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington made a point about men. They are both absolutely right; we need to change the culture, and not just among women. We need women who have been victims or who are worried about their siblings and members of their family to come forward, but we also need men to speak out.

One of the most heartening things I heard over the summer was when I visited the Border Force safeguarding team at Heathrow terminal 5. The law had only changed a week before, and the team told me about their experiences of families traveling out of the country, often via the middle east, to countries where FGM may take place. It was the men—the brothers, the uncles and the fathers—who said to the Border Force guards, “Thank you for having told us that this is a criminal offence and that if this happens to my daughter, sister or niece while she is out of the country, you will be watching for that on her return and we will face jail for having allowed it to happen. That means I have the power and the authority to tell members of my family who want to do this to my relative that they cannot, because it is a criminal act here in the UK.” That is such an important point.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

The Minister makes a good point. Getting across to men the idea that they do not want their daughters to be mutilated because it is wrong, as well as being fearful of prosecution, is fundamental. The idea of this happening to my granddaughter is unthinkable, and we want it to be unthinkable for all men. In societies that are strongly patriarchal, the man’s view counts.

[Karen Bradley]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; we have to change attitudes among men and women, so that they understand. I cannot imagine how any father could think of this happening to his daughter, but the excuse given is, “You will need to do this to your daughter, otherwise she will not be attractive to men.” Fathers need to speak out and say that that is simply not the case. We need to ensure that as many people as possible speak out and say that. I commend all the campaigners on this issue, some of whom are victims themselves and many of whom make that argument.

I want to make a point about training. I mentioned in my opening statement that the Department of Health is funding a £3 million national FGM prevention programme, which is under way in partnership with NHS England and has reached thousands of professionals. More than 2,000 professionals have attended women’s sessions, and nearly 8,000 GPs have received resource packs. The next stage of the programme includes work to address the mental health needs of those who have had FGM and to improve the NHS safeguarding system.

We have had a good and open debate. I appreciate the support from both sides of the Committee, and I share the frustration about the lack of a successful conviction. We are all sending a message that that is what we want to see. I accept the points made and will write to members of the Committee about the helpline and how this offence can be reported. I assure the Committee that the Government will continue with the range of work under way on FGM, ensuring that best practice and information is shared at both the European and international level.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 17228/13, a Commission Communication: Towards the elimination of female genital mutilation.