Kelvin Hopkins
Main Page: Kelvin Hopkins (Independent - Luton North)Department Debates - View all Kelvin Hopkins's debates with the HM Treasury
(13 years, 7 months ago)
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The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
As observant Members will note, this is the second Finance Bill of this Parliament and the third one this year. The date of the general election earlier this year reduced the time available for scrutiny of technical measures in advance of that election, and the short timetable available between our emergency Budget and the summer recess has made it necessary to have a third Finance Bill to address various technical measures.
Given the content of this Bill, I suspect that there will be a fair amount of cross-party consensus on the matters in it but, in any event, I would like to congratulate the newly appointed shadow Treasury team. In particular, I congratulate the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, both on her election success as a member of the shadow Cabinet and on her appointment to her current position. She will bring considerable experience of Finance Bills to the shadow Treasury team, both as a former Minister and from the Finance Bill earlier this year.
Although he is not present, I should like also to congratulate the newly appointed shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson). He stated over the weekend that his first task was to read an economics primer, but he also expressed the need to hit the ground running, because of the Finance Bill today. Whatever his education programme, I suggest that he should not necessarily begin with the scrip dividend treatment of real estate investment trusts or the taxation of long cigarettes. However, we wish him well in that process.
At the emergency Budget in June, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out this Government’s fiscal mandate, acting swiftly to tackle the deficit and restore credibility to the public finances. In the short, summer Finance Bill, we quickly put the core elements of the Budget on to the statute book, reassuring the British people and the financial markets that we would not allow Labour’s debt to spiral out of control.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
The Minister mentioned cigarettes. Are the Government going to do anything to tackle the £4 billion that is lost through cigarette smuggling? That is four times the amount of money that they are apparently hoping to save by cutting benefits to the better off.
Mr Gauke
The hon. Gentleman makes the fair point that there is too much cigarette smuggling, and this is a matter that we are keen to address. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has already announced proposals to provide additional funding to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to tackle cigarette smuggling, among other things. I very much welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention but, let us be honest, it would be unrealistic to say that we could prevent all cigarette smuggling. We can, however, take steps to reduce it. That would be to the benefit of the Exchequer, and I am pleased that the Government are moving ahead and doing that.
It is our determined actions that have restored confidence in the economy, stabilised the nation’s credit rating and halved interest rates on Government short-term borrowing. We are saving money today so that we can invest in tomorrow. Ours is the right approach for the country, and that has been widely recognised. Only a fortnight ago, the International Monetary Fund said that our deficit plan was essential to restoring confidence in the UK’s public finances and “supports a balanced recovery”. That is the approach that we will take forward, including in the spending review.
Ms Eagle
The hon. Gentleman is even more melodramatic in his rewriting of history—his historical revisionism of what was going on in the UK economy—than the Chancellor. I had thought, having watched that performance, that that was impossible, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman should try out pantomime this year as Christmas approaches.
I was about to say before I was so rudely interrupted that, rather than encumber himself with the tedious technical detail in this Budget, the Chancellor decided to start behaving like the Liberal Democrat student activists we all come across at university and to take it in parts. This is part two. As a result, we have in today’s Bill what can best be described as the technical innards of a Budget; I think that the Exchequer Secretary used other words. In fact, most of the clauses, as he pointed out, are the technical innards of the last Labour Budget, which was presented in March 2010. However, it is the duty of the Opposition to scrutinise the detail of all Budgets, and we certainly intend to fulfil that obligation tonight.
Measures included in the Bill are important to the workings of the taxation system—the Minister did the House a service by going through them in great detail—but they have failed to inspire much interest or controversy in the outside world, perhaps because they have been signalled for a long time. The measures were subject to consultation under the previous Government as well as the current one when they were in development. Some might even say that they were prototype proposals, because that is the way that things tend to be done in the Treasury. That is attested to by the lack of much comment on or reaction to the proposals even among the taxation professionals who usually pore over the technical details of Finance Bills with fine-toothed combs. In respect of this Finance Bill, those professionals have been strangely unmoved—I might even say indifferent.
Kelvin Hopkins
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on her appointment to the Front-Bench team and I am pleased to see her there. Is not the fact that this is a mouse of a Bill, given that we face a £120 billion tax gap that the Government are doing nothing to reduce, and that 1% of that sum would save more money than their cut in benefits?
Ms Eagle
My hon. Friend is right to point out that there are two sides to the deficit reduction equation. Clearly, one side of that is collecting the taxes that are due in an appropriate fashion, and I shall say more about that later in my speech. He is right that we need constantly to keep that side of things in mind.
I was about to pay tribute to the Institute of Chartered Accountants, which was one of the few organisations to submit comments on the Bill when many had fallen by the wayside. Perhaps it is up to the Opposition to be vigilant when others have taken their eyes off the ball.
As my hon. Friend said, it is odd that we are debating a seemingly uncontroversial and overwhelmingly technical Finance Bill in the midst of one of the most difficult and dangerous periods for the UK and world economies in many generations. We have lived through the largest banking and financial crisis in the global economy since the Wall street crash of 1929. It has caused a deep and painful global recession, and we are struggling with the aftermath of the rescue of the world financial system from the colossal market failure that was dramatised by the collapse of Lehman Brothers in 2008. That inevitably caused budget deficits to soar everywhere, but especially in the more advanced western economies.
The UK was particularly affected, in part because of the size of our banking and financial services sector. The concerted action co-ordinated at the London G20 conference averted a catastrophe, and we are now witnessing a tentative economic recovery. However, that recovery remains distinctly fragile.
Ms Eagle
That is true. Clearly, the Chancellor and Prime Minister are on record, up to and including in 2008, as doing precisely what my hon. Friend says and supporting our spending commitments as they were at the time.
Although the recovery remains distinctly fragile, the June Budget took a huge and risky gamble with it. Since then, confidence in the UK’s economic prospects has fallen off a cliff and business surveys, such as that by Deloitte which I asked the Exchequer Secretary about, demonstrate that economic sentiment is darkening. There are increasing signs that the tentative recovery is stalling and that the economic storm clouds are gathering once more.
Kelvin Hopkins
I agree entirely with what my hon. Friend is saying. Is it not true that those who invest and those who are lacking confidence now are simply aware that cutting spending, cutting jobs and cutting benefits will drive the economy into recession, and that nobody will invest when we are diving into a recession? Does she agree that in the early part of this decade Britain had a relatively low level of public spending as a proportion of gross domestic product compared with, for example, Scandinavia?
Ms Eagle
My hon. Friend is right on both points, but he also raises an important issue about what Keynes called “animal spirits”. It is fair to say that all the signals are that the animal spirits are somewhat more depressed now than they were a few months ago and that the things that have depressed them are the decisions that were announced in the June Budget.
Ominous noises are coming out of the recent International Monetary Fund meeting about currency wars and competitive devaluations, and they offer worrying echoes of conditions that led to the great depression in the 1930s. Dominique Strauss-Kahn was not joking or exaggerating when he warned the IMF meeting about the dangers that the huge increases in unemployment will pose for our democratic institutions. Yet none of this is referenced in the measures before us today.
Ms Eagle
I remember the detailed discussions that we had on that issue in previous Finance Bill debates. The hon. Gentleman has probably been in more of them than I have. The issue is not the abolition of allowances that are 40-odd years old and increasingly do not recognise the changed shape of UK industry. It is about abolishing allowances completely to fund a cut in mainstream corporation tax, with the result that the incentives for investment are taken away at the point of investment.
One of the measures that the Bill ought to have contained but does not is the creation of a tax relief for the video games industry. We all know in the House that in the UK we have a particular expertise in creating video games, which was beginning to create high-value jobs in the UK in what has become a multi-billion-pound industry. We also know that our brightest software engineers are being tempted abroad by generous and possibly illegal tax breaks, and that we risk the decimation of our UK base if we do not respond. That is why, while we were in government, we developed the video games tax credit, which was to operate along the same lines as the film tax relief. In opposition, just before the election, the Conservative party supported that. On 13 April 2010 the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), now the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, said:
“We are committed to a tax break along the lines of the video games tax credit. We have been calling for tax breaks for the video game industry for the last three years.”
Like so many other things said during the general election campaign, that pledge was abandoned immediately after it. We will want to explore the issue further in Committee.
Before the Minister uses the standard Treasury line about how the video industry can always make use of the research and development tax credits that are available more generally, he might care to put all our minds at rest and deal with the nasty rumours swirling around that the entire R and D tax credit may be at risk in the cuts to come. Perhaps the Economic Secretary will reassure us on that point.
Another notable omission from today’s Bill is any reference to increasing the resources which will allow HMRC to build on its already excellent work to tackle the tax gap. Obviously, as was said earlier, the more that tax due is collected, the more effectively the deficit can be tackled and the less pain our society will be forced to endure during the adjustment ahead. During the conference season the Deputy Prime Minister made much of the need to close the gap between the taxes that are due and those that are actually collected. He made grand and welcome pronouncements that it is “ethically wrong” to avoid paying our taxes. He was followed by the present Chief Secretary to the Treasury who announced, interestingly, that he regarded both tax avoidance and tax evasion as “morally indefensible” in times like these.
Kelvin Hopkins
I agree entirely with what my hon. Friend is saying. PCS, Richard Murphy and others have made the simple point that appointing more tax officers would solve the problem. They collect many times their own salary, and it would be highly beneficial to the Exchequer if that were done.
Ms Eagle
My hon. Friend is well known for his views on the subject.
Neither of the Ministers whom I just quoted revealed just how successful HMRC has been in pursuing this work in the past three years. HMRC increased the yield from compliance interventions by 60% in the three years to 2008-09. However, we all know there is more to be done and we would all support sensible measures to make such work even more effective.
Following all the fuss about that and the headlines generated, I would have expected to see some extra action in the Bill. However, despite the dramatic headline- grabbing moral assertions, nothing has been added to the Bill to signal the Government’s determination to launch a further crackdown. The worry is that the 25% to 40% cuts in departmental staffing due to be announced in the forthcoming spending review will seriously damage HMRC’s ability to maintain its work on improving tax collection, let alone to launch a further successful crackdown on the tax cheats. Again, this is a topic to which we will return in Committee, but I would be grateful for any reassurances the Minister may be able to offer us tonight that the operational capacity of the HMRC in this crucial area will be enhanced rather than decimated in the cuts to come.
Perhaps the hon. Lady can also explain to the House precisely what signal on tax collection the Government intend to send by appointing Sir Philip Green to advise the Prime Minister on Government efficiency. His own tax arrangements include paying a £1.2 billion dividend to his wife, who just happens to be domiciled in Monaco for tax purposes. Although this is not illegal, the Business Secretary has gone on record as saying that he is unhappy about it, and the Energy Secretary has said that it sends the wrong message. Can the Minister explain how this example squares with the Chief Secretary’s grand pronouncement that both tax evasion and tax avoidance are immoral in times like these? Once more, we must look at this Government’s actions rather than their words. Their decisions will be far more eloquent than thousands of well-crafted press releases or any synthetic outrage.
As we await the spending review, it is abundantly clear that the centre of economic and political attention lies not with the Bill but elsewhere. We would have wanted this legislation to contain at least the beginnings of a plan for growth, but it does not. It should have contained some extra and concrete plans to back up with credible action the Deputy Prime Minister’s fine words on the immorality of avoiding taxes, but it does not. In choosing to cut the deficit further and faster than we proposed, the Government have taken a huge gamble with our economic prosperity. A synchronised deficit reduction throughout the developed economies risks plunging the world back into either recession or a Japanese-style jobless recovery. The Irish example should be a salutary lesson to the Government of the risks that they run with their economic approach.
In the meantime, we will look closely at the Bill and take a keen interest in it as it goes through Committee. We will see whether some of the issues that I have raised can appear as amendments during its passage through the House.
Mark Simmonds
The hon. Lady makes a fair point, and I should say two or three things. First, the national insurance changes that the coalition Government have made will make it better and easier for employers to take on new employees in the private sector. Secondly, the Treasury is working on the regional fund to address the difficulties that are faced in some regions, which, I would argue, are over-dependent on public sector jobs, so that people can move into the private sector quicker than would otherwise be the case.
The second element of the expansionary fiscal contraction is to encourage business to invest, and I do not agree with the fundamental argument of the shadow Treasury spokesperson. There is a direct inverse correlation between Government borrowing and business investment, which means that when Government borrowing declines business investment goes up, and vice versa. That would be especially true if it were supported by expansionary monetary policy, which it is and, I hope, will be for the foreseeable future.
Opposition Members may say, “That all sounds very well theoretically, but has it ever happened in practice?” The simple answer is, yes. It has happened twice in recent times—not only in the early 1980s, when the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Geoffrey Howe, reduced public expenditure and interest rates and, therefore, stimulated economic growth, but—
Mark Simmonds
In a minute, because the hon. Gentleman might be keen to comment on this point. The correlation also occurred under the previous Labour Government, between 1997 and 1999, when they stuck to the preceding Conservative Government’s expenditure plans. That is when GDP growth under the previous Administration was at its highest, averaging roughly 3.5% per year—significantly higher than during the rest of their tenure. So, the correlation has occurred before, and I see no reason why it should not occur again.
Kelvin Hopkins
I hesitate to say this, but I was around in 1979, and I remember it very well. The Government at that time massively increased VAT and increased interest rates. The pound rose, and neo-classical economists, like the hon. Gentleman no doubt, said that unemployment would fall to below 1 million. It actually rose to more than 3 million, and one fifth of manufacturing disappeared. It was only when the Government later reversed those policies that the economy started to expand, but sterling depreciated by 30%, during Nigel Lawson’s tenure, when the economy started to grow again.
Mark Simmonds
I am grateful for that intervention. The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that I do not share his analysis. In fact, the parallels are interesting. I would argue that in the early 1980s Geoffrey Howe and Margaret Thatcher were clearing up the mess that they inherited from the previous Labour Administration, just as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Liberal Democrat colleagues in the coalition are tidying up the mess that we inherited from the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) and Tony Blair, his predecessor.
Claire Perry
As always, my hon. Friend makes an excellent point based on his substantial experience in the business world. During that process, we showed a clear commitment to doing the right thing for the British economy. We did not do things to maximise political headlines, of which the previous Government were guilty on an almost weekly basis.
What is the result of taking those bold actions? Let us talk numbers. The risk premium on the British economy has dropped by 30% since the election. Long-term interest rates—the 10-year interest rates—have dropped by more than 1%, meaning a 25% reduction in the cost of borrowing. These are not arcane measures thought up by a load of greedy bankers; they materially flow through to the borrowing costs of our constituents, both for mortgage and small business borrowers. The measures mean real growth for the British economy.
Why did we not consider tax measures in the first Finance Bill of this Parliament? The point made earlier on transparency and consultation is a valuable one. We said that we will be a Government who are far more transparent and that we will allow time for consultation.
Kelvin Hopkins
I am listening with interest to the hon. Lady. She said that the Government did not introduce tax measures, but what about the rise in VAT, which is a regressive tax? The introduction of a more progressive tax—for example, a tax on the rich or on big business—might have been more acceptable, but a regressive tax will deflate the economy by taking money out of the pockets of ordinary people, who spend most.
Claire Perry
I would debate regressive and progressive taxation and the question of income or expenditure with the hon. Gentleman, but I would like to make a little progress, if he will allow me, and focus specifically on the technical measures in the Bill.
The measures were published on 12 July, and I believe that we have had a number of responses to them, and we now feel that we have had adequate consultation to proceed. The House feels that we can cope with the split between two Finance Bills, but I would like Ministers to reassure us that we will revert to one Finance Bill as soon as possible, as the situation normalises. In that way, the whole finance package can be given proper scrutiny, and we will not have the kind of piecemeal debate that we are having today.
Finally, let me give some context to the measures. We have heard this before, but I make no apologies for saying it again: we have a record deficit. That is not the result of a financial shock that emerged like the creature from the swamp from America in 2007, but the result of a Government who spent more than they earned in taxes every year from 2002. I have listened with great interest to the representations made by Labour Members. They say, “We were investing. We weren’t ‘spending’; we were building schools and hospitals.” They were building schools and hospitals, but they were borrowing money to do so. In the process, they put the bill on future generations of taxpayers. They talk about being progressive, but that is not a progressive thing to do with the British economy.
The previous Government bequeathed us interest costs of £120 million a day. That is paid largely to foreign Governments, so that they can build their schools and hospitals off the tax pounds that we collect from our taxpayers. There is nothing progressive about that.
What do we get when we discuss the measures? Do we get the intelligent, grown-up debate that the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), the shadow Chief Secretary, asked for? We certainly do not get intelligent, grown-up debate on how to cut the deficit from the few Labour Members in the Chamber. With a very few honourable exceptions, we get opposition to everything. That was amply demonstrated during today’s statement by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. We now have the extraordinary situation of Labour Members, in opposing everything, wanting to tax the poorest families in this country to pay £1 billion in child credit to the richest 15% of families. I suggest that, by opposing everything, Labour Member get themselves into some extraordinary technical tangles.
Conservatives want to talk about deficit reduction, but Labour Members put up the ideological barricades, saying, “You’re bad Tory cutters. You’re bad Lib Dem ideologues.” Behind the sound and fury, one question remains unanswered: what would Labour Members cut? Where would their £44 billion-worth of spending cuts fall? If they oppose everything in our deficit-reduction plans—the plans are supported by the International Monetary Fund, the OECD, the CBI, the Bank of England, Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson and everyone but Labour’s Front-Bench team—they weaken their status as a viable Opposition.
I shall finish if I may by quoting Labour’s new shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson). No, this is not about his need for an economics primer; it relates to what he has said about the British people. He said:
“I think the reason why they took to the coalition is they thought, well, here’s someone rolling their sleeves up and getting down to the job.”
We are getting on with the job. The measures in this Bill are part of that, and I urge every hon. Member here tonight to vote for the Bill, as I shall be in the not-too- distant future.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I wish to add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), who spoke in the most heartfelt way about his heartbreakingly lovely and beautiful constituency and in the most thoughtful and considered way about the impact of regulation on smaller businesses. I also wish to congratulate the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury on her elevation and the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) on returning to the Front Bench, even if it is not the Front Bench that he would have preferred to be on—no doubt he is a patient man who will wait to have another go in due course.
This Budget, with this Finance Bill, is an essential piece of legislation. We have a country that is all but bust; its budget deficit is more than £150 billion and we face a structural deficit of £109 billion, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility. What does that tell us? It tells us that two thirds of the current extra borrowing each year has nothing to do with the recession and the global financial crisis, and has everything to do with the economic incompetence of the previous Government. The Leader of the Opposition urges that instead of adopting a fiscal position of raising taxes by one third and cutting spending by two thirds, we should make it 50:50. My hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) has calculated that that would raise people’s taxes by another £1,300. Such a massive bombshell would not be constructive in this difficult fiscal environment. The Government have taken difficult decisions on taxes, but the further tax rises that the Opposition urge on us are not at all responsible or helpful.
It is therefore right that the coalition is taking the economically responsible and sensible position to step right and stabilise our country and its finances, but we need to have growth and a growth agenda. It is helpful that corporation tax is being reduced to 24% over the next few years, and I hope that in time the Government will be able to go further and bring it down to about 19%. I hope that they will give serious and substantial consideration to a holding company regime such as exists in places such as the Netherlands and Luxembourg, so that the UK becomes a holding company international headquarters of the European time zone. The UK and London, rather than the continent itself, would thus become the jumping off point for Americans investing in Europe, which would provide a massive fiscal stimulus to the UK economy and would make it the financial headquarters centre and the international business centre of the European time zone. We should be very alive to the competitive fight that we have with our European friends, and seek to maximise our position and that of London as the international financial and business centre of this time zone.
We may get a fiscal bounce out of encouraging large businesses to move to this country, set up here and stay here—I note that WPP and Hiscox have left and moved overseas, as have others—but if we want long-term sustainable development and growth, and more jobs and money over the longer term, we need to consider smaller business, because it has a stronger sense of growth over the long term and it supplies the entrepreneurial flair that creates more jobs and money.
Kelvin Hopkins
I entirely accept the need to sustain small businesses, but small businesses live off two things: first, big businesses, which make orders for them; and, secondly, demand in the economy, as we go for meals out, get building alterations done to our homes and so on. If people are not spending because they are frightened of losing their jobs and having their pensions and benefits cut, that damages small businesses at least as much as it does big businesses.
Charlie Elphicke
I would agree with the hon. Gentleman that confidence plays a massive role in our economy—and nowhere more so than with our smaller businesses. The confidence that we have seen since the election seems to be feeding through to the growth figures, which seem to suggest that we are coming out of the recession faster than anyone thought we would. Personally, I think we should be more positive about the prospects for the economy and the prospects for faster growth over the medium term, given the nature of the stabilisation and the confidence that the coalition Government have provided to the country. However, that does not mean that there is not more we can do for small businesses. We can and must, as my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) and others have said, have more liquidity for the small business sector. It has been too locked up in banks preparing their balance sheets—we need more lending.