Dormant Betting Accounts

Kelvin Hopkins Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Westminster Hall

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I will try to live up to your flattery—it may have been a compliment, but I feel flattered.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) on securing this debate. I want to call him my hon. Friend, because he is a friend. Although he is not a party political friend, we are both members of the Select Committee on Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs and we have spent many happy hours discussing matters on that Committee. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) made another excellent speech. I agree with both speeches in their entirety, but I will share a few thoughts of my own.

The hon. Member for Inverclyde is seeking effective Government action to address dormant betting accounts, which is a matter of great seriousness. He has, not for the first time, raised the issue of problem gambling—compulsive or addictive gambling—about which I, too, have been concerned for many years. I sympathise with his view. I am, of course, old enough to remember the first betting shops opening in the 1960s; later in that decade the first UK inland casino, Caesars Palace, opened in my Luton North constituency. There has since been progressive relaxation of regulations governing gambling establishments, the use of fruit machines in places of entertainment, and so on.

The last Labour Government were pressed by the gambling industry to allow the opening of many mega casinos across the country, which I and many others in my party opposed, and the proposal was largely seen off by the House of Lords. But that Government made the installation of fixed odds betting terminals possible. I think I was the first person to use the term “crack cocaine of gambling” in the Chamber to describe FOBTs, although I did not coin the phrase.

I occasionally gambled moderately in my youth. I bet a shilling each way on a horse or two, which shows how old I am. One of my dearest friends, sadly now deceased, wisely observed that gambling is a pleasure for which he usually had to pay. We would do rather better if we all had that attitude. However, that sensible attitude is not given to all gamblers. The opportunities and temptations to gamble dangerously have increased over the decades, and gambling addiction is now an enormous social problem. We need Government action and legislation to reduce harmful gambling, and I do not accept the spurious notion that freedom means that the state should not involve itself in such matters. The state has a duty to help protect us from danger, as with alcohol and other things.

[Julian Knight]

Will the hon. Gentleman enlighten us as to what other prohibitions he would like to see introduced?

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I will address some of them later, but I will not be specific. I have only been in my job for a few days, and I have yet to be fully briefed on where my party stands on this matter, so I have to be careful—I suspect that I would go further than my party might like—but I hope to persuade my party to pursue proper action. I will not specify that action today but, so long as I am in this job, I will seek to persuade my party.

The notion of freedom is overplayed. We were the last country to make wearing a seatbelt compulsory in cars and, of course, a lot of people died because they did not wear their seatbelt. We all started wearing seatbelts after it became compulsory, and hundreds of lives have since been saved every year. That is just one of many examples where the state intervenes to protect us from ourselves and to make us more sensible than we would otherwise be. Most of us are sensible, but some people are not and require a little encouragement from the law.

Fixed odds betting terminals are, of course, responsible for much of the most problematic gambling in our communities. As gambling has been progressively relaxed, we have seen the problems increase. FOBTs continue to cause immense damage to people’s lives, destroying families and driving some of our poorest people into penury and massive debt.

Today, we are discussing what should be done with the considerable sums left in dormant betting accounts and suggesting practical ways of using those sums for beneficial social purposes. One suggestion is to find appropriate ways of using the moneys to help support problem gamblers, and detoxing is one way in which they could be helped. There should be a suitable public agency—here we go, perhaps my left-wing views are coming out now—or public fund to which these moneys could be transferred with appropriate safeguards. If all dormant betting accounts were required by law to be declared and specified in the accounts of gambling companies each year, we would know how much those accounts were worth. We could then decide what to do with them. The sums might be very small, and it might not be worth doing anything with them because the administration would be too expensive, but like the hon. Members for Inverclyde and for North Ayrshire and Arran, I suspect that the sums will be considerable—they will be in the many millions and possibly even billions.

The 2010 Department for Culture, Media and Sport report by the former right hon. Member for Bath, Don Foster, who has now been elevated to the other place, suggested that new bodies should not be created. Although I applaud his good work, I beg to differ. A publicly accountable body that operates transparently could provide a useful and secure home for such dormant account funds. Former ownership could be registered with all necessary and available details so that if the moneys were ever claimed, they could be returned to the rightful owners, but many owners will have forgotten or lost the money, or died or whatever. Considerable sums could be collected and used for beneficial public purposes. Support for sporting activities, especially for the young, would be another obvious use. No one would lose, and claims by rightful former account owners would be honoured.

[Julian Knight]

The hon. Gentleman says that no one would lose, but surely if money is taken away from companies, the employees and the shareholders lose?

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Well, yes, profits might be dented a bit, but I doubt that employees would lose, especially if they were properly represented by trade unions, as many of them are. I am frequently lobbied by members of my own union about their jobs in local casinos. It is possible that profits might be affected by the interest earned on such accounts, but the money could be used for good social ends rather than being wasted through lost opportunity costs.

Legislation would be required, of course, to facilitate such a system and require bookmakers and others to release the funds, but I see no downside for the public in what I suggest. I hope that these thoughts take hold at least within my own party, and hopefully with the Minister too, who I know is socially concerned. I hope that she, like me and the Scottish National party Members, is concerned about the damage caused to many ordinary people by dangerous gambling. I do not wish to say any more. Perhaps in another debate I might branch out rather further into my interventionist approach to policies to make people’s lives better and safer.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

We look forward to that. Meanwhile, in this debate, we can in theory go on until 5.53 pm, but we do not have to.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Tracey Crouch)]

On day two after returning from maternity leave, I already have the honour and pleasure of serving under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I place on record my thanks to my colleague and right hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett) for covering my portfolio for the past five months. I also take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) on his appointment. We have worked together on many issues, not least due to our shared interest in alcohol addiction. This is an opportunity for him to use his freedom to make policy while nobody is looking. Go for it!

I congratulate the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) on securing this debate. I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss dormant betting accounts and the incredibly important issue of research, education and treatment for gambling-related harm. I thank the other hon. Members who have participated in this debate for their informed and helpful contributions.

Gambling is a legitimate leisure activity enjoyed by many people, but I am absolutely clear that we must do all that we can to protect vulnerable people from gambling-related harm. Hon. Members may well be aware that I am extremely passionate about this issue and have championed it for many years. I will touch on that in more detail in a bit, but first I will concentrate on dormant accounts and unclaimed winnings, which is worthy of consideration in some detail.

“Dormant accounts” tends to refer to online or telephone accounts in which a customer has deposited funds and which have then seen no activity for a set period. That time period, as others have said, varies between operators and can be anything from a few months to more than two years. If the account remains dormant beyond that period, many operators will absorb the funds into their profit line.

The previous Government commissioned an independent report to investigate whether unclaimed winnings or money in dormant accounts could be put to good use. The report was undertaken by Lord Foster of Bath, and acknowledged a number of practical, technical and legal issues that would need to be considered in order to take forward any proposals in the area. One of the report’s key findings was the lack of information about how much cash was lying dormant in such accounts. Further work would need to be explored, either in voluntary discussions with the operators or by introducing a new licence condition via the Gambling Commission, although I heard what the hon. Member for Inverclyde said about his own approach to getting some of that information from the operators.

In my view, any additional money for the treatment of gambling harm must be a good thing. Therefore, I see the potential benefits of directing funds that have been left dormant for a set period of time towards education on gambling-related harm, research into it, treatment and prevention. Members may be aware of the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008, which allows the Government to direct money left untouched in bank and building society accounts for more than 15 years to good causes.

In March this year, a new independent commission on dormant assets was established to support Government, to identify additional pools of unclaimed assets and to work with industry to encourage the voluntary contribution of those assets to good causes. The commission will report and make recommendations to Government on the feasibility of expanding the dormant assets scheme before the end of the year, and it is considering unclaimed gambling winnings as part of its asset scoping work. Relevant sector organisations, including the Gambling Commission, have provided submissions to the call for evidence. Officials from my Department are in contact with colleagues at the Cabinet Office, and I will stress to them the need to work closely together, to see what progress can be made as part of the forthcoming recommendations on the feasibility of expanding the dormant assets scheme.

I have taken a close interest in gambling addiction for some time. By all accounts, it is the silent addiction—the one that gets the least interest and funding, especially compared with drugs and alcohol. Sadly, there is often a link between gambling addiction and other addictions that might not always be identified. Therefore, as the secondary harm, gambling addiction might well go unnoticed until it is too late. Research indicates that the vast majority of those who gamble do so without problems and overall rates of problem gambling remain low, at less than 1% of the total adult population, yet I am sure that we are all acutely aware of the devastation that gambling addiction can cause. The NHS website estimates that there are nearly 600,000 problem gamblers in Great Britain. I was struck by GamCare’s estimate that for each problem gambler, there may be 10 to 15 other people whose lives are adversely affected by their activities.

The health implications of problem gambling are such that there is a clear overlap with public health policy and practice, especially on mental health issues and substance misuse. I have spoken with my ministerial colleagues in the Department of Health, and officials from that Department and mine have met to discuss the issue. My officials continue to take this work forward.

Returning to funding for gambling-related harm, it would be remiss of me not to highlight that the gambling industry contributed more than £7 million to the Responsible Gambling Trust to fund research, education and treatment for gambling-related harm last year. Under their current licence requirements, all gambling operators must make an annual financial contribution to one or more organisations that perform research, education and treatment. The vast majority choose to contribute to the RGT, the leading charity in the UK committed to minimising gambling-related harm, which aims to prevent people from getting into problems with gambling and ensure that those who do develop problems receive fast and effective treatment and support.

The RGT’s funding priorities are guided by the national strategy advised by the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board and endorsed by the Gambling Commission. I was heartened to see in the national responsible gambling strategy that the gambling industry is now committing significant resources to harm minimisation, over and above its voluntary contributions to the RGT.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

The Minister mentioned the staggering figure of 600,000 problem gamblers. That requires more than rehab and treatment; it requires measures to prevent people from getting into that situation in the first place.

[Tracey Crouch]

I agree completely. I know people who have lost everything in their lives to gambling. We must ensure that we work across Government not just to tackle harm but to prevent people from getting into such situations in the first place. The one thing that I know about gambling is that it is pretty indiscriminate in terms of who becomes addicted, much like addictions to alcohol or drugs. When we talk about vulnerable people, and especially when we talk about gambling in general, we often think about deprived communities—I see it in my own community in Chatham—but the truth is that people from any walk of life can become addicted to gambling and lose absolutely everything as a consequence. That is why we have to do much more on prevention and treatment of gambling.

To return to what we are doing in research, education and treatment, it is clear from the strategy that gambling-related harm is a complex area—I know that at first hand from speaking to people in my constituency, from knowing individuals and from reading the letters I have received as Minister responsible for gambling policy. I therefore welcome the work undertaken by the RGSB in the national responsible gambling strategy published in April. For the first time, the strategy was put out for public consultation and subsequently agreed by all those who have implementation responsibilities. It will help the industry, the Gambling Commission and the Government to focus our responses, and indeed our resources. The areas that the strategy will support include setting research priorities and determining best practice in preventive measures, effective treatment and targeted interventions aimed at reducing gambling-related harm. The RGSB is now working with the RGT to estimate the costs of the activities identified in the strategy, and the Government will work very closely with the Gambling Commission and the RGSB on its implications.

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) made the point that this is a debate about principle, and she is right. Let me be clear: I am sympathetic to the principle. There are practical issues that need to be discussed, but my view is that every extra pound put into preventing or treating gambling harm is a good thing. I thank the hon. Member for Inverclyde again for securing this debate and other Members for their valuable and informed contributions. I take problem gambling seriously and am deeply committed to ensuring that the gambling industry makes appropriate contributions to these important areas, including funding programmes of research, prevention and treatment of gambling-related harm. It is clear that Members who have spoken so passionately on this issue today and in other debates share that aim.