Recall of Tumble Dryers

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Nick Smith

Monday 17th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Gentleman. I know that he has a particular interest in this matter. He will know that, when I last sat in front of him at the meeting of the all-party group on fire safety, I was very clear that if action needed to be taken I was not fearful of taking it. As I tried to outline to the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), it is a valid suggestion, and I do agree that we need to look at it. That is why I have said here today that I am prepared to bring that to the Consumer Protection Partnership to see whether we can progress it further. He is absolutely right: we need to do all we can to ensure that consumers are protected, but fundamentally I am here today to talk about holding Whirlpool to account, and I am proud to be standing here and doing that. This Government want to ensure that, no matter how big manufacturers are, we will still make them comply with the law.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Where is the Whirlpool list of model numbers that may be at risk?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. As I have outlined, anyone who has one of the brands that are affected—Hotpoint, Indesit, Swan, Proline and Creda, manufactured between April 2004 and September 2015—should go to the Whirlpool website and put in their model and serial numbers to find out whether it is an affected model. If they do not want to go on to the website, they should ring Whirlpool’s helpline.

Draft State Aid (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Nick Smith

Wednesday 10th April 2019 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft State Aid (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hanson. The draft regulations were laid before the House on 21 January. They transpose into UK domestic law the EU state aid regime, as set out in articles 107 and 108 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union and in various EU regulations. By so doing, they transfer the state aid regulatory functions of the European Commission to the UK’s Competition and Markets Authority. The draft regulations will therefore ensure that state aid rules continue to operate in a domestic context after exit day in the event of a no-deal exit. If passed, the regulations will come into force on exit day.

State aid is any Government subsidy or support provided to an economic operator that gives it an advantage that it could not get on the open market and that distorts competition between EU member states. The EU therefore has tough rules governing the way that subsidies can be given, to stop companies gaining an unfair advantage over their competitors. However, there are good policy justifications for state aid—when the rules enable it to be given—if the benefit from giving aid outweighs the potential harm that a subsidy would cause.

The rules are intended not to prevent public authorities from supporting industries and business, or indeed nationalising assets, but to minimise distortion to competition. Ultimately, spending decisions within the framework of the rules—how much, to whom and for what—are for successive Governments, the devolved Administrations and local authorities to make. To be clear, the state aid rules are about supporting fair and open competition, and the UK has long been a vocal proponent of them. Ultimately, the rules are good for taxpayers, consumers and businesses.

There are three main reasons to maintain the state aid rules and establish a UK regime when we leave the EU. First, it will provide continuity and clarity for public authorities that grant state aid and for organisations that receive it. That will give confidence to the wider business community, which will benefit from the continued protection provided by the rules. Secondly, it will help to maintain a level playing field throughout the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

In appendix 1, there is a letter from Mick Antoniw AM, who chairs the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee of the National Assembly in Cardiff. The letter is dated 6 February 2019. It points out the

“problem that the Welsh Government and the UK Government disagree as to whether State Aid is devolved.”

Mr Antoniw states:

“The Welsh Government has requested from the UK Government, an explanation of their legal position but there has been no response.”

Can the Minister please give us the Government’s legal position on that?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The hon. Gentleman may be referring to the commitment, made by my noble Friend in the other place, to write to the Committee. He still plans to do so. The Government’s position is that state aid is a reserved matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

No, I am afraid I disagree. Currently, the devolved Administrations are responsible for aid givers, and they will potentially be aid givers. Under current EU regulations, the devolved Administrations have to notify the Commission of the giver of that aid. The SI will not change that. In a no-deal situation, the CMA will act as the notified body. There is no change. I disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s statement, but I respect his attempt to push that point and get further clarification.

[Nick Smith]

Mr Antoniw’s letter was dated 6 February, which is now over two months ago. May I press the Minister on when we will get the Government’s legal position? Can she give us a date, please?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I believe that the Secretary of State replied to that letter, but I will have to go back and look at what letters he has sent before I can clarify further. I am more than happy to let the hon. Gentleman know after the Committee, if that is agreeable to him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As I have already outlined to the hon. Gentleman, the Government are clear that we believe state aid to be a reserved matter. I have tried to outline that a number of times, and I have outlined that there will be no loss to the devolved Administrations.

As I have said, under the current regulations, when the devolved Administrations decide to give aid they have to notify the European Commission. In the future, they will notify the CMA. As I have outlined, the Secretary of State will continue to consult, work with and have conversations with the devolved Administrations on any future aid policy. The Secretary of State has made that commitment, and there is no reason to suspect that it will not happen.

[Nick Smith]

Surely the Minister accepts that, although she may assert what the Government think, it is fair and reasonable for us to ask them to give us the legal explanation for their view. That is all we are asking for, and we should have it.

Terms and Conditions of Employment

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Nick Smith

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Unfortunately I do not represent the DWP here, so I am unable to make comparisons at the Dispatch Box today. However, as I have just said, 420 staff are involved in enforcement, and we have doubled our spending on it because we are determined to ensure that businesses pay workers what workers are entitled to. We will continue to enforce that where we can.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

How many companies have been penalised for breaking the rules on the national minimum wage? How many prosecutions have been brought in the last year?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

There have been 14 prosecutions since the introduction of the minimum wage, and other companies are undergoing investigations. However, as I have said, our priority in regard to enforcement is to ensure that people who have been underpaid receive the arrears to which they are entitled, and the payment of those arrears is matched with a penalty of up to 200%. We can undertake prosecutions, among other actions, but that is our priority.

[Nick Smith]

The Minister replied to my question by saying that there had been 14 prosecutions since the introduction of the national minimum wage, but that was not the question I asked. I asked how many prosecutions there had been in the last year. Could the Minister clarify that, please?

Draft Insolvency (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Nick Smith

Thursday 24th January 2019 General Committees

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I see the hon. Gentleman understands that point.

As the hon. Gentleman will know, in what we have laid out as our future economic relationship in a deal, our focus is on ensuring that we are able to deal with mutual recognition and reciprocal status going forward if a deal is to be had. We recognise, with the profession, that if we can come to an agreement in this area in a deal situation, that would be in everyone’s best interest. With a deal, we would continue our civil judicial co-operation, including on cross-border insolvency. That is in the best interests of both the UK and the EU, as he outlined. However, it is not possible for us to unilaterally continue with the co-operation on cross-border insolvencies; we can achieve the benefits that both sides currently enjoy only through a mutual recognition agreement with the EU. The declaration on the future relationship was clear that it would include wide-ranging agreements on trade, including trade in professional and business services and the framework necessary to support that.

We will continue in those endeavours, but this SI is intended to ensure that, in a no-deal situation, UK law provides clarity for the profession and that we are able to operate on day one. After that date, it would be down to us to bring any further changes to our insolvency regulations that are not in the scope of the draft regulation to the House, as we see fit. After leaving, there may be things that come up that we might need to change, but that would be done in the course of standard business.

Regarding the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about the Pension Protection Fund, I assure the Committee that the Prime Minister and the Government have been clear that we will not row back on workers’ rights through the withdrawal Act. Employees living and working in the UK for a company registered here or in the EU will continue to receive redundancy-related payments from the national insurance fund where their insolvent employer cannot make them, as they do now. The draft regulations ensure that the law in this area is clear and can operate correctly when we are no longer an EU member state. One of the limitations is that within this SI we cannot guarantee for workers in EU states, how EU member states will deal with the employees working in those states. What we can do, as laid out in this SI, is to ensure that people working in the UK, be it for EU companies operating in the UK or UK companies, will still have those protections as they are now for UK workers.

On the hon. Gentleman’s questions about the impact assessment, we have been in this situation many times over recent months and I know it is a particular concern for him. However, for this particular SI we have assessed the direct cost of to business in terms of the costs of insolvency and have estimated that the direct cost would be £2.7 million, due to the extra costs that may arise when practitioners need to open cases in EU member states, which they do not currently have to do under EU regulations.

[Nick Smith]

I do not know whether this is the case, but if there is a no-deal Brexit, will EU-based employers pay the levy into the Pension Protection Fund?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

EU member states will be operating under the current EU regulations as they stand, according to how they have implemented those rules in their own states. We currently submit to the levy here, so workers in the UK, whatever their nationality, will still be entitled to all of the same protections and benefits that exist today. With regard to how individual member states implement the EU regulation, we cannot guarantee how they will interpret a UK no-deal situation. We hope EU member states will treat all UK workers in the same way as we will treat people working in the UK, but that is something we cannot dictate. Does that give some clarity?

[Nick Smith]

No, the Minister did not absolutely clear up the matter for me. Will she check whether EU-based employers will continue to pay the levy into the pension protection fund on behalf of UK employees should we leave without agreement?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I apologise if I was not clear. Perhaps I was trying to explain the matter in a more complicated way. Yes, they will all pay the PPF levy. I was simply trying to highlight that we here can expressly say we are making sure that all people working in the UK, no matter what their nationality, will be afforded all protections. What we do not have any control over is future changes that might occur in other member states and in EU regulations in a no-deal situation. At that point we will be regarded as a third country, but under the current regulations they will still pay into the fund.

The changes proposed in the draft regulation go some way to protecting the UK insolvency market in the event of a no deal. They ensure that citizens, businesses and the insolvency profession will not be disadvantaged by unilaterally retaining EU rules when reciprocal and necessary safeguards would not be guaranteed by the EU. The proposed changes provide certainty and clarity regarding cross-border insolvency cases with the EU following exit.

The regulations also ensure that protections for UK employees of insolvent employers are maintained after the UK exits the EU: something we all agree is vital. The instrument is essential to repeal the majority of EU insolvency regulations from UK law and to retain the status quo for employment rights in the UK. I hope I have been able to answer all the questions and I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Insolvency (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.

Draft Postal and Parcel Services (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Nick Smith

Thursday 13th December 2018 General Committees

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Lady for her kind comments. I will try to answer her questions and give her some more information about what has been done.

Regarding co-operation, as the SI highlights we will not be able to continue as a member of the ERGP after we leave, but Ofcom has made it clear that we will be trying to obtain permanent observer status. I touched on this briefly in my opening speech, but I can reassure her that that group votes only twice a year, so the voting element is minimal. It is an advisory board, working together and consulting, and there are a number of countries with observer status in the group. Obviously, obtaining that status is a decision that will have to be taken at a later stage, but I do not see any reason for it not happening.

As the hon. Lady will know, we are already a member of the Universal Postal Union, which is a UN body that operates worldwide and is able to co-operate internationally. The potential impact of the measure will cross over to the impact with respect to cross-border issues. As she will know, we are in consultation with Royal Mail and other delivery operators regarding customs arrangements and requirements that will be necessary. That work is being undertaken by Her Majesty’s Treasury and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and that information is already being tested in the White Paper.

Regarding impact assessments, we believe that this SI has a very minimal impact. It is under the £5 million mark, so a full impact assessment has been judged not to be required. We are continuing to work with delivery operators and the Royal Mail as we move through the process, towards exit day, either with or without a deal, to make sure that we continue to address what needs to be addressed. We have assessed that neither the regulator nor the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy would require further funding to be able to operate under a no-deal scenario in relation to this SI.

To put it on record and to put the hon. Lady’s mind at rest regarding cross-border parcel delivery, we have a duty to co-operate with other countries with respect to the postal service and parcels. We will become a third country, but we expect that to operate in the same way with the European Union. We will retain European standards, which are widely shared. We have a great postal service here in the UK, and it has become more efficient in the past eight years.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Does the Minister know whether Royal Mail anticipates that any customs changes that come about due to a Brexit in which we crash out will have any practical impact?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. We are continuing to work with Royal Mail and HMRC on the customs arrangements that will be put in place. That is a live issue, which continues to be consulted on. I cannot give him full details, because that is a piece of ongoing work.

[Nick Smith]

I thank the Minister for that response. Will she update us on the analysis she does with Royal Mail on the possible financial impact of the draft regulations in the event that we crash out?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

If there was to be a direct financial impact that was less than minimal, of course we would provide an update. As things stand, we have assessed that there will be a very minimal cost, but we continue to work on those customs arrangements. Let us be frank: in a no-deal situation, we will be dealing with customs for our postal and parcel services in some way, shape or form, so that will have to be monitored right up to our leaving date while we wait for our direction to be confirmed. That is as far as I can go on that point, I am afraid.

The draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by section 8 of the withdrawal Act. Those powers will provide legal clarity in respect of postal and parcel services legislation after the UK’s exit from the EU by removing inconsistencies and inappropriate references from the statute book. I have addressed the concerns of the Commons sifting Committee about the effects of the UK’s non-participation in the ERGP as a result of our leaving the EU. The draft regulations do not represent a policy change in the operation of postal services; they preserve as far as possible the rights, responsibilities and protections offered by the existing system. I therefore hope the Committee will approve them.

Question put and agreed to.

Draft Accounts and Reports (Amendment) (EU Exit) REgulations 2018

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Nick Smith

Wednesday 12th December 2018 General Committees

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I will try again to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question. There is no policy change in this SI: it is correcting deficiencies in the retained EU law. If he is asking about the impact of no deal, I refer him to the work that has already been done by Government on the impact of a no deal scenario versus a deal scenario, rather than these individual statutory instruments. As he will know, there are a number of statutory instruments across all Departments that may well affect businesses in different ways, which do not come under my responsibilities as a junior Minister in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I just want to press the Minister on this point about the overall cost to business of the no deal planning that she has talked about. My hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central has mentioned the specialist media coverage of the accounting requirements that have already taken place in one sector of the economy, and this is the third Delegated Legislation Committee on this topic in this week alone. By when will we receive from the Minister the true cost to business of these extra responsibilities and regulations from her Department?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As the hon. Gentleman well knows, the assessments of the effect on business have been well reported. With this particular SI, we are talking about the impact on a very small number of businesses, compared to the 3.8 million that are registered. The vast majority of UK-registered companies will not be affected by the SI at all, because we are not changing the policy; we are correcting deficiencies so that we are legal and can operate correctly and efficiently in the case of a no deal scenario. Quite rightly, if we are able to establish a future relationship with the European Union—if we are in a situation where we have a deal—this is one of a number of elements that would be part of those ongoing negotiations. However, I am unable to give the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent clarity on the direct question he asked regarding the total cost to business for all the SIs that have been passed or are coming up.

[Nick Smith]

On this topic, in this Department.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

If the hon. Gentleman is referring to accountancy, we are talking about the accountancy SI today.

[Nick Smith]

Will the Minister give way?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I am going to carry on, because I have given as full an answer as I am prepared to give.

As I highlighted in my introduction, and as I have reiterated, we are not changing the way in which we ask companies to report. We will work with Companies House, as we do already, to ensure that we identify all the companies that are affected by not having the exemptions, that we have the data, and that any guidance that is needed is issued well before the SI comes into effect.

On the extraction industries, the hon. Member for Sefton Central is right that currently the EU Commission has the power to grant equivalency to third countries. We are not changing any of the criteria for that; rather than the EU Commission having that power, the Secretary of State would have the authority to make those decisions in a no deal situation. As I outlined, the SI will correct the deficiencies in EU retained law.

Ending Seasonal Changes of Time (Reasoned Opinion)

Debate between Kelly Tolhurst and Nick Smith

Monday 12th November 2018 General Committees

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The Government’s course of action at the moment is to be successful—we are still hopeful that we will be able to block the proposal, thanks to what I have outlined in my statement—but if not, we would work with the devolved administrations and would consult widely. One of the reasons for our objection is the timeframe, which is very short, and other member states have said that other elements are completely unworkable. We have support from different member states and they share some of our concerns.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

Does the Minister think that the provision in the Bill presented by the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) in the last Parliament but one—that the clocks should go forward to Greenwich mean time plus one hour in the winter and to GMT plus two hours in the summer—would be a good idea, as that would reduce road traffic accidents and save lives? Does she think a similar proposal might be made in the future?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As hon. Members will know, during the second world war, we had GMT plus two hours at one point, before that changed in 1968 to 1971, and again in 1972. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point; many Members of Parliament and other bodies have suggested that a change in the time zone could have an impact on road safety. Currently, we are not consulting within the UK on whether to change the clocks; we are working with other EU member states to block the proposal, full stop.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Smith]

May I ask the Minister if she thinks it is a good idea to bring clocks forward to save lives?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

First, I would say that it is rather an unfair question to ask me whether a clock change would save people’s lives. If the hon. Gentleman was able to provide me with evidence to suggest that that might be the case, it might alter my personal position. I highlight to him the fact that the Government’s position is clear: we are not looking to change the clocks as they stand at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I have written, as a Minister, to the devolved Administration. My officials have written to the officials in Northern Ireland. I have not issued any direct guidance. I hope that that finally answers the hon. Lady’s question.

[Nick Smith]

May I just ask the Minister to take a peek at the evidence provided by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, which quite clearly supports the case I have made today and which may influence her thinking in future?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his clarification. I still believe that his original question was slightly unfair, but as he will know I do engage, as the Minister with responsibility for consumer protection, with organisations concerned with accident prevention. I recently had a forum with those organisations; we are looking at ways in which we can protect consumers and the general public.