Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill (Third sitting)

Katherine Fletcher Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th June 2022 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Yes, you can. The question was not directed to you—again, I am mindful of time—but of course, please do come in.

Dr Campbell: I will be very brief. I just wanted to pick up on one thing said by Mr Stevenson and one by Dr Mills. Mr Stevenson mentioned the scope of the animal welfare advisory body as it is written into the Bill, and I think he is absolutely right. It needs to be increased so that it has a more proactive function and looks at the actual process of precision breeding, not just looking at marketing authorisation applications. I know you talked before I joined the meeting about the interaction between the ASPA and this piece of legislation. I think it is going to be very important to understand that and whether the Bill is proposing to bring some genetic precision breeding out of the ASPA and into a non-ASPA realm. The advisory body will be important there.

That brings me on to the point about the international aspects of this legislation. I am very aware that one can go online now, already, and buy a genetic editing kit for frogs, including live frogs. You have to purchase it in the States—I checked this morning before I joined. We must be careful of having a system in place that carefully regulates professional scientists, but somehow allows others to undertake genetic editing of animals outside of it. That will be very important to protect animal welfare, as well.

[Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con)]

Q I am a huge supporter of higher welfare standards for animals—it is really vital. Having lived and worked in Africa, I agree with Dr Mills that we are fortunate in the UK to value the fellow mammals that we share the planet with—we can forgive the odd chicken and not get offended. However, to my mind, the Bill is about enabling science and making sure that we can go forward and use the tools and techniques in institutes such as Roslin. I am not sure why animal welfare would need to go in the Bill if precision breeding is the same as traditional breeding and, in fact, lots of the deficits in traditional breeding techniques are what has produced some of the deleterious conditions that current stock animals find themselves in. I will start with Dr Campbell, but I would welcome anyone else coming in. Dr Campbell, in your practice as a vet, if you identify poor animal welfare, what current legislation would you be using to ensure that that was taken up and prevented? I do not see the link between a different breeding technique and animal welfare standards falling over. Do you see what I am getting at?

Dr Campbell: I think I see what you are getting at. Obviously, in normal, non-experimental areas, one would be looking either at the Animal Welfare Act 2006 or at the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966. I think what is different here is the potential for off-target effects, which at the moment are not very well understood and not predictable. We need to have a mechanism for keeping a very close eye on those.

I have one more point. There is—carried over from the consultation on this Bill, I think—an idea that a mutation, effectively, that could occur in the wild is really no different from what we are trying to achieve by genetic editing. And while it is true that a mutation might occur in the wild, that does not necessarily mean that it is not a bad thing. And anyway, when we are doing the genetic editing, we are very deliberately trying to cause something at a very high incidence, and that probably would not be the incidence of the mutation in the wild. So I do think there is a difference between employing these technologies and just more general selective breeding, and so-called traditional breeding is currently ill defined in this Bill.

[Katherine Fletcher]

Q There are a couple of points there. Could I just come back to the question that I asked, which was about having animal welfare standards in this Bill, because for me the Bill is about enabling science? Then I would like to ask a brief follow-up question on your point about the techniques.

[The Chair]

Be mindful that we have under three minutes left of the whole sitting.

[Katherine Fletcher]

Okay, I will ask this in one sentence. Current animal welfare standards are not in this Bill, but we have animal welfare standards—is that right?

Dr Campbell: We have animal welfare standards under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, certainly. A noticeable thing about this Bill—I think someone else mentioned the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Act 2022—is that, as I understand it, the Bill is relying on the definition of animal in the Animal Welfare Act and that of course is less comprehensive than the definition in this year’s Animal Welfare (Sentience) Act. It does not include cephalopods or decapods, and I am unclear on why that is.

[Katherine Fletcher]

In the interests of time, perhaps we can pick this back up and explore it later. I am conscious that others want to come in, Ms McVey.

[The Chair]

Okay, with two minutes left, is it possible to get Kerry McCarthy and Andrew Bowie in?

[Kerry McCarthy]

Q This will possibly have a one-word answer. We have heard quite a few witnesses say that the farm animal welfare codes are sufficient in terms of regulating some of our concerns bout welfare. This question is particularly for Professor Campbell and Mr Stevenson. Do you think they are adequate?

Peter Stevenson: No, the codes do not address breeding issues in any very clear way, other than sometimes through a broad principle to say, “Yes, be careful how you breed in order not to harm animal welfare.” We have a huge amount of legislation in this country, but just one or perhaps two provisions that deal with breeding, and they are so broadly worded that they have never had any impact on the harms done by selective breeding. To go back to Katherine Fletcher’s point, I think it is vital that there is something in this Bill to protect animal welfare, because the current legislation, as I said, has really very little on breeding, which is why we have all these problems. If this Bill is going ahead—I know it is—let us at least have some good, well-crafted animal welfare protections.

[Katherine Fletcher]

Is not the implication of that that you would be telling the scientists what to do?

[The Chair]

Sorry, but we have only 30 seconds left. Can you do a quick question, Andrew Bowie?